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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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I'm your host Mick West my guest today

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is dr. Michael Shara founder of the

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skeptic Society and publisher of skeptic

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magazine he's the author of numerous

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books on science and skepticism and he's

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appeared on TV many times and we're here

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to talk about his latest project

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conspiracies and conspiracy theories for

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the great courses inaudible so dr.

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Schiller

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thank you for being here and welcome no

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thanks for thanks for having me he you

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were one of my inspirations to do this

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course because I loved your book

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escaping the rabbit hole as you know I

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quote from it and numerous of the 12

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lectures yeah I was pleasantly surprised

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to come across my name a couple of times

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I service listening to it now this is

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it's an interesting project and I think

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it's kind of like a new thing for

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audible and the great courses it's kind

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of almost like a collaboration it's

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almost like a book or a course yeah so

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they they're branching out and trying

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different things you know audible it

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actually had evolved from books on tape

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back in the 80s and 90s I used to listen

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to audio books on cassette tapes with

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the Sony Walkman that's how far back I

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go and it was always a great way to

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consume content when you're driving or

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working out or doing chores or whatever

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I would do that then I had already done

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a course for the teaching company

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skepticism 101 it's based on the course

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I teach at Chapman University and and so

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one of the chapters was on conspiracy

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theories because that's a topic we deal

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with in skeptic magazine all the time

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and so then I thought well they should

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do a course on just on conspiracy

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theories because there was nothing in

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the catalog of the great courses on

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conspiracy theories and I thought well

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that would be good time to do it there's

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a ton of books I get you know books for

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review all the time and so I had a huge

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stack of conspiracy books including

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yours and I thought well I got it all

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right here I could just knock out a

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course probably in a few months so I did

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you know since the Trump election you

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know conspiracy theories are back in the

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news big time so I think it is pretty

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important to deal with it particularly

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so many of these you know sort of white

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supremacists and populist and extremists

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of left and right have conspiracy

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theories behind them for what motivates

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them

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I thought boy this is really an

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important topic not just a kind of a

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fringe like dealing with the

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flat-earthers like like you've done so

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well it's kind of fun but they're pretty

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harmless you know they're not gonna go

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out and commit mass genocide in the name

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of the flat earthers versus the

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globalists you know but by Conspirator

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conspiracy theorists you know they they

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are potentially dangerous so it's

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important yeah yeah and that's certainly

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a theme that runs through rinrin runs

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through your book the real harm of

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conspiracy theorist and yeah i really

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like the way you you did the book in

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that you I think trying to give a lot of

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context to things and you start off with

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the book in like in lesson number one

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you talk about you know there's some

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very obvious things like the

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Christchurch shooting in New Zealand

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where some guy showed up a mosque and he

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was kind of like basing his rationale

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for that essentially on conspiracy

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theorists you know there are things that

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you set out saying the harm is real

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which i think is very important

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yeah the you know when these guys post

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their so-called manifestos and you can

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go back to read say the Unabomber is

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manifesto they are really a type of

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conspiracy theory either overt

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conspiracy where some government agent

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or agency is doing something to us or

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it's more of a sort of subtle long-term

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trends of history conspiracy theory

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where you know technological society is

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moving in this direction and it's

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ruining our lives and we have to reverse

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it in case of the Unabomber those are

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all kinds of conspiracy theories things

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that they think are true that we can

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test whether they're true or not but

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have effects on behavior yeah and yeah

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another kind of thing you do in the book

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I think well is that you you make the

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point throughout the book but especially

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in the first chapter and the last

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chapter that there are lots of very real

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conspiracies and that we need to be

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aware aware of these things as well so I

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mean that's kind of like the subtitle of

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your book is like what should you

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believe and why so you know you you

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start out and I think this is a great

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way of talking to conspiracy theorists

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it's starting out by listing a whole

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bunch of a very real conspiracy

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yeah absolutely and and it's not it's

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also a good strategy in terms of like

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what you talked about in escaping the

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rabbit hole of how you talk to people in

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a way to engage them so they'll be

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honest and forthright with their beliefs

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one way is to acknowledge that sometimes

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they may be right and I find this the

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case when I was on Joe Rogan shows

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several times that you've been on you

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know he's he's really open to a lot of

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these conspiracy theories I think maybe

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more open-minded than I am about some of

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them but the but but the fact is

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sometimes even Alex Jones is right and

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so we have to we have to acknowledge

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that we can't just say well because Alex

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Jones said it that therefore it can't be

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true because he's he's crazy

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sometimes he's right and so the you know

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the rub here is well which are the true

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conspiracy theories in which were the

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false conspiracy theories so that's why

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I that's why I started making distinct

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between a conspiracy and a conspiracy

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theory spear see is you know a plot you

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know in secret by two of our people to

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gain a moral or illegal and immoral or

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illegal advantage over somebody else or

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some other group of people that that

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does happen then that the theory is the

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structured belief system around that

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conspiracy itself the question is is the

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conspiracy theory true or not which

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would then reflect on whether the

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conspiracy itself happened or not

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alright so yeah so like you know what is

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real and what isn't it's it's a it's a

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very a very difficult thing like we

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talked about the demarcation problem

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like you mentioned that later on but

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moving on to like kind of lesson to hear

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you talk about the different ways of

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classifying conspiracy theories and

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there seems to be like lots of different

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ways in which people like classify what

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is a conspiracy theory and what are the

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types of conspiracy theory I mean do you

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think there's like some kind of

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confusion here that we need to kind of

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settle on a language that we can all use

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to talk about them yeah I found that

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quite interesting that there was no kind

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of theoretical model over the study of

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conspiracy theories like in other

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branches of the social sciences you know

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the theorists and experimentalists have

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kind of

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on a particular framework about how

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they're gonna talk about the subject and

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test it and and then try to find some

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causal explanations for whatever it is

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they're studying there wasn't really

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there still isn't really anything quite

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like that for conspiracies because Percy

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theories I think in part because it's

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always been treated by scientists as

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kind of a fringy nutty borderline and

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Borderlands area that real scientists

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don't study and it's only just recently

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maybe in the last 10-15 years that a

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handful of social scientists have said

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well let's actually study this let's

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actually do a survey and find out how

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many Americans are Brits or Europeans or

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Germans or whatever believe this or that

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they're not just the moon landing or

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some crazy flat earthers or things like

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that but but but other things like to

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what extent do you think the government

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has conspired to alter the immigration

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policy that will harm our nation you

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know that's a that's a real issue that's

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in the news pretty much every day and

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you know so that's why you know I I kind

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of dove into that I'll just go through

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these some of these from my notes

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because I haven't looked at this in a

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while but you know just by category you

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know anti-semitism aliens aviation

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government medicine religion signs of

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Technology suspicious deaths of course

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is always a popular one the Clinton

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Fintan body count so oh yes well when it

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went up with Jeffrey Epstein

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yeah suici that was actually an

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interesting case on Twitter because I

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was I was posting skepticism about the

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Jeffrey Epstein so-called suicide that

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maybe he was murdered I was pretty

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skeptical of that until you know the

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story about the two cameras both failed

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in the hallways like okay that does look

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pretty bad you know no that's not proof

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that he was murdered or that the

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Clintons or whoever ordered him to be

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murdered maybe it was that you know

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cameras do fail it's possible but it to

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me it was almost reaching that tipping

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point or that kind of demarcation line

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you talk about like you know enough

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stuff builds up and you think okay

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that's pretty suspicious

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yeah I think it certainly it says it's

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very difficult to just when people just

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list the facts like that you know the

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guard didn't check on him he was taken

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off suicide watch and then the cameras

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weren't working and you know he had

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access to a a bunk bed to hang himself

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from it all seems very suspicious but of

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course though it all could be things

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that are coincidences or maybe not even

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so much coincidences like they they had

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a crappy video system in the in the jail

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or things like that it's difficult to

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tell without context but you can

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certainly see how people would get

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suspicious about things like that after

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I posted that on on Twitter somebody who

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works in the prison system wrote me to

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say you know what actually the video

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camera systems are pretty crappy in

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these places they they break down all

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the time I went oh yeah maybe I should

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I liked the framework that Jesse Walker

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outlined in the United States of

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paranoia he has five different types of

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conspiracies theories the enemy outside

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theories based on figures alleged to be

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scheming against a community from

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without and then the enemy within

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conspirators are working within our

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nation or our group the enemy above some

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powerful people manipulating things the

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enemy below features the lower classes

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working to overturn the social order a

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lot of conspiracies about unions and

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Marxists and things like that and then

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his fifth one was the benevolent

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conspiracies or angelic forces that work

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behind the scenes to improve the world

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and help people I find almost no

275
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:28,269
conspiracy theories are positive like

276
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:31,120
that you know when when you track moral

277
00:10:34,769 --> 00:10:33,279
progress over the centuries like people

278
00:10:37,319 --> 00:10:34,779
like myself and Steven Pinker I've done

279
00:10:38,939 --> 00:10:37,329
there are very rarely conspiracy

280
00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:38,949
theories about you know people working

281
00:10:43,019 --> 00:10:41,560
to make things better you know most of

282
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:43,029
the conspiracy theories have a negative

283
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:45,010
valence to them you know people are

284
00:10:51,689 --> 00:10:48,010
conspiring to do harm to somebody else

285
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:51,699
you know so yeah I like that yeah I

286
00:10:54,930 --> 00:10:52,720
thought that was probably the most

287
00:10:58,079 --> 00:10:54,940
interesting of the different frameworks

288
00:11:01,410 --> 00:10:58,089
I mean how do you classify conspiracy

289
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:01,420
theories I I mean I kind of don't really

290
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:03,250
I mean I think in a way I would do it

291
00:11:06,290 --> 00:11:04,959
just on a simple way that you listed by

292
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:06,300
the types of theories like

293
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:08,010
no aliens I dis Emmett ISM whatever

294
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:09,930
science because I look at like

295
00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:13,610
individual things like chemtrails and I

296
00:11:20,330 --> 00:11:17,220
find you know with the spectrum things

297
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:20,340
kind of an individual conspiracy can

298
00:11:24,530 --> 00:11:22,800
span the spectrum quite a bit so it it

299
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:24,540
can kind of cross over various

300
00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:29,010
categories like with with the 9/11 stuff

301
00:11:34,820 --> 00:11:31,350
you you could be part of some kind of

302
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:34,830
New World Order Zionist yeah

303
00:11:39,380 --> 00:11:37,170
Illuminati type thing or he could just

304
00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:39,390
be here's something smaller like the

305
00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:40,590
project for a new American Century

306
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:42,990
wanting to further their their goals in

307
00:11:48,590 --> 00:11:46,530
the Middle East so that they're the

308
00:11:50,510 --> 00:11:48,600
answer was necessarily easy to

309
00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:50,520
pigeonhole so perhaps we do need these

310
00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:52,110
different ways of classifying them like

311
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:53,910
new you you slice them this way and you

312
00:11:58,660 --> 00:11:55,530
slice them that way and you get a

313
00:12:01,580 --> 00:11:58,670
different perspective on on what it is

314
00:12:03,410 --> 00:12:01,590
yeah I I added my own just a two-fold

315
00:12:05,420 --> 00:12:03,420
one of paranoid conspiracy theories

316
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,430
versus realistic conspiracy theories of

317
00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:07,680
the paranoid ones include aliens evil

318
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:09,870
forces world domination schemes or

319
00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:12,090
cobalt cabal so numerous and plot so

320
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:13,560
complicated that it can ever be pulled

321
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:15,810
off like the Bilderbergers Rockefellers

322
00:12:19,220 --> 00:12:17,250
and Rothschilds running the world's

323
00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:19,230
economies and obviously doing a crappy

324
00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:19,830
job of it

325
00:12:23,210 --> 00:12:21,390
you know the Illuminati determining

326
00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:23,220
political elections and power relations

327
00:12:27,950 --> 00:12:25,590
even 9/11 is an inside job I consider

328
00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:27,960
all those to be too paranoid to be

329
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:29,790
realistic and realistic ones more like

330
00:12:34,670 --> 00:12:32,370
you know Volkswagen conspiring to cheat

331
00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:34,680
the emissions regulations in Europe you

332
00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:36,630
know Watergate may be the Russian

333
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:39,390
hacking of the 2016 election you know

334
00:12:44,630 --> 00:12:41,490
those you know Wells Fargo opening fake

335
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:44,640
bank accounts those things are not only

336
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:46,250
they real but that's really more

337
00:12:51,170 --> 00:12:49,110
accurate of what actually happens that

338
00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:51,180
you most conspiracies that are real are

339
00:12:56,450 --> 00:12:54,540
kind of more narrowly focused you know

340
00:12:58,700 --> 00:12:56,460
some direct targeted thing just that

341
00:13:01,660 --> 00:12:58,710
thing right there you know so you could

342
00:13:04,970 --> 00:13:01,670
definitely see like Putin in his

343
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:04,980
colleagues they're operating to

344
00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:07,200
manipulate social media to give Trump

345
00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:09,420
yeah it's a very specific thing it's not

346
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:11,430
like the conspiracy theory is that Putin

347
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:13,550
wants to take over the world you know

348
00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:18,000
she probably does he may very well or at

349
00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:19,230
least probably wants to cobble together

350
00:13:22,579 --> 00:13:19,800
something

351
00:13:24,199 --> 00:13:22,589
like the USSR in all the Baltic States

352
00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:24,209
and so on he would probably like to do

353
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:25,260
that I don't think he can do that

354
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,649
anymore

355
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:27,600
you know just just what he did in Krait

356
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:30,510
with Crimea that was a conspiracy and he

357
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:33,120
pulled it off although it wasn't such a

358
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:35,339
secret conspiracies but he kind of tried

359
00:13:39,740 --> 00:13:36,720
to make it that way remember the Russian

360
00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:39,750
soldiers were not wearing uniforms clear

361
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:42,120
little green men they called them that

362
00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:44,040
was an interesting thing I voted on with

363
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,480
little green men because I think they

364
00:13:49,069 --> 00:13:47,040
wore green I guess they were they were

365
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:49,079
short or something many people thought

366
00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:50,850
that was evidence that there were aliens

367
00:13:54,319 --> 00:13:52,500
in our mist because there was stories

368
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:54,329
about the army talking about little

369
00:14:00,139 --> 00:13:57,290
green men yeah so there's a short-lived

370
00:14:02,329 --> 00:14:00,149
flurry of interesting aliens at the time

371
00:14:04,579 --> 00:14:02,339
but a couple of generalizations that

372
00:14:07,699 --> 00:14:04,589
some social scientists have made is is

373
00:14:09,860 --> 00:14:07,709
having to do with power that is people

374
00:14:12,319 --> 00:14:09,870
out of power tend to think people in

375
00:14:15,380 --> 00:14:12,329
power have more power than they have and

376
00:14:19,009 --> 00:14:15,390
therefore that makes them more paranoid

377
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:19,019
or more concerned or anxious about what

378
00:14:23,199 --> 00:14:20,880
they may be doing behind closed doors

379
00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:23,209
yeah it turns out that you know that

380
00:14:28,490 --> 00:14:26,520
fortune 500 CEOs and and major

381
00:14:30,079 --> 00:14:28,500
politicians generally don't have as much

382
00:14:32,269 --> 00:14:30,089
power as we think that they do and the

383
00:14:36,079 --> 00:14:32,279
people that get in there often surprise

384
00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:36,089
about what they can't do and you know

385
00:14:39,079 --> 00:14:37,860
it's like my the joke I make about you

386
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:39,089
know when you get elected president they

387
00:14:41,870 --> 00:14:40,410
take you in the back room they go okay

388
00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:41,880
here's what's actually going on in the

389
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:43,470
Middle East this is why we can't pull

390
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,730
the troops out this is why we can't

391
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:47,040
close Gitmo this is why we can't end

392
00:14:50,569 --> 00:14:49,050
this war and so on and and look what

393
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:50,579
just happened yesterday with you know

394
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:52,290
Trump says you know okay I'm gonna pull

395
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:54,810
the troops out of out of northern Syria

396
00:14:58,670 --> 00:14:57,360
and Turkey's gonna go do their thing you

397
00:15:01,250 --> 00:14:58,680
know it's like we've been there forever

398
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:01,260
enough is enough boom even his own party

399
00:15:06,199 --> 00:15:03,360
leaders were you know hard on that it's

400
00:15:07,550 --> 00:15:06,209
like wait we were doing what again now

401
00:15:08,540 --> 00:15:07,560
cuz I didn't really follow that the

402
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:08,550
Kurds and this and that

403
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:11,250
oh okay so we've been knee-deep in the

404
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:14,399
muddy there for a long time and you know

405
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:15,750
a lot of this stuff goes on behind

406
00:15:19,490 --> 00:15:17,519
closed doors and phone calls and so on

407
00:15:21,019 --> 00:15:19,500
and then stuff happens that's a kind of

408
00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:21,029
conspiracy but again it's very narrowly

409
00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:24,899
focused having to do with power and you

410
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:26,430
know so some of the research shows for

411
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:27,899
example that there's no racial

412
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:30,320
differences in could spirit conspiracy

413
00:15:35,329 --> 00:15:32,970
thinking you know but but but

414
00:15:37,150 --> 00:15:35,339
but but the target of the conspiracy

415
00:15:38,929 --> 00:15:37,160
theory is is racially bad so

416
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:38,939
african-americans for example are more

417
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,350
likely to think the government conspired

418
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:42,720
to plant crack cocaine in inner cities

419
00:15:47,929 --> 00:15:45,959
or created the AIDS virus to decimate

420
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:47,939
the african-american population whites

421
00:15:51,530 --> 00:15:49,410
don't worry about that White's worry

422
00:15:54,079 --> 00:15:51,540
about you know the government's

423
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:54,089
conspiring to take away the Second

424
00:15:58,309 --> 00:15:56,310
Amendment and confiscate our guns that

425
00:15:59,900 --> 00:15:58,319
that sort of thing so no difference

426
00:16:02,809 --> 00:15:59,910
between blacks and whites except for the

427
00:16:05,449 --> 00:16:02,819
kinds of conspiracy that they embrace

428
00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:05,459
having again to do with somebody's

429
00:16:09,259 --> 00:16:07,560
trying to control us some powerful

430
00:16:12,319 --> 00:16:09,269
entity usually it's a government agency

431
00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:12,329
but sometimes corporations so the power

432
00:16:17,019 --> 00:16:14,100
thing I'm not sure how the power thing

433
00:16:19,309 --> 00:16:17,029
would involve say the flat-earthers or

434
00:16:21,889 --> 00:16:19,319
maybe the creationists or something like

435
00:16:23,569 --> 00:16:21,899
that they do think it's kind of a power

436
00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:23,579
thing the Flat Earth people they think

437
00:16:29,629 --> 00:16:26,220
that tricking people into believing the

438
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:29,639
earth is round is a way of the powers

439
00:16:33,139 --> 00:16:30,959
that be kind of asserting their

440
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:33,149
authority over people it's kind of like

441
00:16:37,579 --> 00:16:36,240
they you know the thing in 1984 where

442
00:16:40,879 --> 00:16:37,589
you make someone believe something that

443
00:16:42,290 --> 00:16:40,889
just Falls two plus two equals five if

444
00:16:44,179 --> 00:16:42,300
you if you can force someone to believe

445
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:44,189
something that is false then you have

446
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:47,490
control over their their mind that's

447
00:16:50,990 --> 00:16:48,930
true that is that is a kind of power

448
00:16:55,369 --> 00:16:51,000
that's right a psychological power yeah

449
00:16:58,189 --> 00:16:55,379
yeah yeah I was curious if if you'd seen

450
00:16:59,720 --> 00:16:58,199
that Netflix film behind the curve yeah

451
00:17:01,100 --> 00:16:59,730
you probably seen that you know I was

452
00:17:03,139 --> 00:17:01,110
thinking about the psychology the people

453
00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:03,149
that attended that conference that they

454
00:17:06,679 --> 00:17:05,400
they had the camera crew there and I

455
00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:06,689
think you might be right there might be

456
00:17:12,679 --> 00:17:09,929
a sense of empowerment that we are in

457
00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:12,689
this room and those of us behind these

458
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:15,630
closed doors here we know what's really

459
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:17,730
going on you kind of see it in their

460
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:18,959
face that maybe they're otherwise kind

461
00:17:23,929 --> 00:17:20,850
of nerdy powerless people or whatever

462
00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:23,939
but now they have at that moment like we

463
00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:25,860
we are empowered with this secret

464
00:17:29,539 --> 00:17:27,689
knowledge yeah they really enjoy it I

465
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:29,549
actually went to a Flat Earth conference

466
00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:32,130
I got invited to speak there it was this

467
00:17:36,529 --> 00:17:34,500
weird one have you heard of Mad Mike

468
00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:36,539
Hughes the the rocket guy who was trying

469
00:17:43,220 --> 00:17:41,190
to shoot a steam rocket he he organized

470
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:43,230
a little conference and they invited me

471
00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:44,250
as the

472
00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:45,960
kind of guest of honor to speak as asked

473
00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:48,420
from the sceptic point of view and so I

474
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:50,220
got to talk there and meet all these

475
00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:52,050
people he was a very poorly attended

476
00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:53,340
conference but the people they were

477
00:17:57,470 --> 00:17:55,620
really nice and they just seemed on the

478
00:17:59,210 --> 00:17:57,480
whole to be just like ordinary people

479
00:18:02,150 --> 00:17:59,220
maybe a little bit more kind of like

480
00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:02,160
hippy and crystal type people than their

481
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:04,020
own average but still they were just

482
00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:06,960
just ordinary people and it was it was

483
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:09,980
kind of very strange that they have this

484
00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:12,330
normality and then they also have this

485
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:14,520
very very weird set of beliefs whether

486
00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:16,170
it is you know lots of people have

487
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,150
strange beliefs as you know people in

488
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:20,400
all kinds of weird yeah I went back in

489
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:22,170
the 90s I went to an alien abductee

490
00:18:26,510 --> 00:18:25,200
conference oh man bunch of them and it

491
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:26,520
was the same kind of thing it's like

492
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:27,840
otherwise they're just sort of normal

493
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:30,510
powerless people but in this room it's

494
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:32,880
like we have all shared this experience

495
00:18:37,850 --> 00:18:35,610
we know it's real and they had kind of

496
00:18:39,170 --> 00:18:37,860
read a little bit about sleep paralysis

497
00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:39,180
and some of the psychological

498
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:41,480
explanations this is all in your head

499
00:18:45,260 --> 00:18:43,590
that you know they don't they absolutely

500
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:45,270
reject that you know and they think

501
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:47,760
something did happen to us we are it's

502
00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:49,200
almost like a chosen people kind of

503
00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:51,660
thing wow the aliens are out there and

504
00:18:54,530 --> 00:18:52,620
they care about us

505
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,540
I mean they cared about us enough to

506
00:18:59,060 --> 00:18:56,160
come into my bedroom in the middle of

507
00:19:01,040 --> 00:18:59,070
the night and take me away and that you

508
00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:01,050
could kind of see the empowerment that

509
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:02,910
they gave them like I have this

510
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:04,650
knowledge about this thing that happened

511
00:19:08,030 --> 00:19:06,210
my friend Lee MacIntyre who's a

512
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:08,040
philosopher of science at Boston

513
00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:10,050
University and he wrote a book called

514
00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:11,940
post truth and then his new book is the

515
00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:13,500
scientific attitude he's just a guest

516
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:15,960
lecturer in my Chapman class Monday

517
00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:17,490
night and he was talking about he went

518
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:18,990
to one of these flat earth conferences

519
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:22,440
just the one last maybe six months ago

520
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:25,200
or so here in the states and he said was

521
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:26,730
the same kind of thing like behind these

522
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:28,320
closed doors in this conference hotel

523
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:30,270
conference room boy we have got the

524
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:32,610
special knowledge and he didn't exactly

525
00:19:36,860 --> 00:19:34,770
go undercover he was just quiet and he'd

526
00:19:38,660 --> 00:19:36,870
signed up paid the entry fee and so on

527
00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:38,670
and and just sat there for the first day

528
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:40,440
but the second day he came out as a

529
00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:42,330
skeptic you know I know we don't believe

530
00:19:47,390 --> 00:19:44,790
this yeah I'm not I'm a social scientist

531
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:47,400
for not a physicist but you know let's

532
00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:48,510
just go through some of the arguments

533
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:51,270
and so he was curious as a philosopher

534
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:54,210
who studies reasoning if he could reason

535
00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:57,240
people out of a belief that they hold

536
00:20:01,760 --> 00:19:59,220
because this is an interesting new area

537
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:01,770
of research now the backfire effect you

538
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:02,850
know when you talk to somebody about

539
00:20:07,159 --> 00:20:05,220
climate change it only they double down

540
00:20:08,659 --> 00:20:07,169
on it but those studies have not been

541
00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:08,669
replicated and now there's some new

542
00:20:12,860 --> 00:20:10,289
research showing that you actually can

543
00:20:16,039 --> 00:20:12,870
talk people out of say climate denial or

544
00:20:17,570 --> 00:20:16,049
creationism or whatever if you but but

545
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:17,580
it has to be done in a particular way

546
00:20:22,090 --> 00:20:20,010
where you're not insulting you're not

547
00:20:25,430 --> 00:20:22,100
challenging their deeper worldview you

548
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:25,440
present the facts in a way that it kind

549
00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:28,740
of particularly a visual official visual

550
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,620
data rather than just numbers you know

551
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:33,600
apparently you know we're a visual

552
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:35,330
primate species so we respond more to

553
00:20:40,430 --> 00:20:38,520
visual stimuli and you kind of went

554
00:20:42,289 --> 00:20:40,440
through a handful of these things that I

555
00:20:43,610 --> 00:20:42,299
too have experienced like it and if you

556
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:43,620
tell people you got to choose between

557
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:46,559
Darwin and Jesus you know they're not

558
00:20:50,299 --> 00:20:48,450
picking Darwin you know bit but but but

559
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:50,309
don't couch it like that you let me give

560
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:52,770
up I have to give up my entire Christian

561
00:20:56,260 --> 00:20:54,390
worldview and everything I believe my

562
00:20:59,210 --> 00:20:56,270
whole life for this theory of evolution

563
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,220
forget yeah it's very difficult to get

564
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:01,200
around that that that kind of false

565
00:21:06,350 --> 00:21:03,450
dichotomy though I talk to the UFO

566
00:21:09,230 --> 00:21:06,360
people quite a lot and they always kind

567
00:21:11,299 --> 00:21:09,240
of leap from me explaining one

568
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:11,309
particular thing to saying that oh well

569
00:21:17,690 --> 00:21:13,500
you haven't you haven't debunked UFOs as

570
00:21:19,639 --> 00:21:17,700
if I was trying to debunk UFOs so now I

571
00:21:21,139 --> 00:21:19,649
have to start out saying this doesn't

572
00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:21,149
prove everything or you know at the end

573
00:21:24,139 --> 00:21:22,950
of a little video I will put in a

574
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:24,149
disclaimer saying all I've done is

575
00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:25,710
explain this one little thing and that

576
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:27,480
doesn't mean anything about and if the

577
00:21:31,159 --> 00:21:29,250
other beliefs or the other cases or the

578
00:21:35,149 --> 00:21:31,169
other bits of evidence so I think they

579
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,159
kind of automatically yeah leap from one

580
00:21:38,389 --> 00:21:36,960
thing being wrong to everything being

581
00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:38,399
wrong which makes it very difficult to

582
00:21:42,529 --> 00:21:40,620
actually address like individual pieces

583
00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:42,539
of evidence yes deep pker makes this

584
00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:45,470
point about climate change that it got

585
00:21:51,889 --> 00:21:49,049
affiliated or tethered to liberalism

586
00:21:55,159 --> 00:21:51,899
because Al Gore's film An Inconvenient

587
00:21:59,210 --> 00:21:55,169
Truth was so huge you know won an Oscar

588
00:22:00,680 --> 00:21:59,220
and Academy or whatever it won and of

589
00:22:02,870 --> 00:22:00,690
course he was the vice president of the

590
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:02,880
you know the Liberal Party so you know

591
00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:04,950
now climate change becomes a liberal

592
00:22:09,919 --> 00:22:07,740
cause so even if you know nothing about

593
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:09,929
it you have to be against it if you're

594
00:22:12,110 --> 00:22:10,650
concerned

595
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,120
Republican because it's a it's a

596
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:14,880
left-wing thing so so when you comment

597
00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:16,890
publicly Pinker makes this point that

598
00:22:20,060 --> 00:22:18,660
you know most people don't know anything

599
00:22:22,250 --> 00:22:20,070
about climate science it's a it's a

600
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:22,260
technical science so but but I can I can

601
00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:24,930
Virtue's signal to my group I'm so

602
00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:27,150
committed to our party that I'm gonna

603
00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:31,260
deny this theory over here and in a way

604
00:22:34,850 --> 00:22:32,940
I think that explains a lot of what goes

605
00:22:36,590 --> 00:22:34,860
on here you know you don't have to know

606
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:36,600
the arguments the specific things I'm

607
00:22:42,350 --> 00:22:39,120
just giving a virtue signal that I

608
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:42,360
belong to this group yeah my endorsing

609
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:44,880
this or denying that yeah I think that

610
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:47,760
kind of extends individuals as well I

611
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:48,960
remember you were on a show called

612
00:22:53,780 --> 00:22:52,410
conspiracy road trip like years ago yeah

613
00:22:56,870 --> 00:22:53,790
I remember there was a scene where I

614
00:22:59,600 --> 00:22:56,880
think they introduce you to the the

615
00:23:01,040 --> 00:22:59,610
conspiracists and you got on the bus and

616
00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:01,050
there was one woman there and she was

617
00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:02,400
like oh I know who you are I'm not gonna

618
00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:03,420
listen to anything you say

619
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:06,990
and she was ready to dismiss everything

620
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:08,910
you said just because you know you were

621
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:10,710
Michael Shermer a skeptic who she knew

622
00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:13,650
was kind of opposed to her so you get

623
00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:16,350
this automatic poisoning the well thing

624
00:23:21,710 --> 00:23:18,390
which is also a very difficult thing to

625
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,720
to get around yeah we ended up actually

626
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:23,520
having drinks later on with the whole

627
00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:26,490
group at the bar after the sort of post

628
00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:28,230
wrapped dinner that they had for all of

629
00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:29,880
us and she was super friendly at that

630
00:23:33,050 --> 00:23:31,560
point and she even said you know I had

631
00:23:33,050 --> 00:23:33,910
no idea I thought you were just this

632
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:36,410
this person I just wanted to

633
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:38,850
hate and yeah you're a nice guy and it's

634
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:40,890
like okay so maybe it pays to be a nice

635
00:23:45,770 --> 00:23:44,340
guy at the start that's interesting

636
00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:45,780
because I've had the exact same reaction

637
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:47,550
like I went over to the plateau of

638
00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:50,910
conference you know I'm a nice guy chat

639
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:52,320
with people and I'm friendly and

640
00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:53,550
everything and everyone was like whoa

641
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:55,590
you're my quest like I thought you end

642
00:23:59,960 --> 00:23:57,810
up in some kind of like arrogant no it's

643
00:24:03,800 --> 00:23:59,970
all who was like making fun of

644
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:03,810
us and so yeah I think it's it you've

645
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:04,890
got to get that across there to people

646
00:24:10,670 --> 00:24:07,710
and and media is a great way of doing it

647
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:10,680
but yeah otherwise it's difficult and

648
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:13,530
and and and abyssal dining and drinking

649
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:15,690
with people is a more social friendly

650
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:17,520
thing back in the 90s when I first

651
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:19,110
started investigating the Holocaust

652
00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:21,450
deniers of course they don't call

653
00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:22,630
themselves that

654
00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:24,580
but they were in Costa Mesa right down

655
00:24:27,779 --> 00:24:26,289
the road from me so I went down to the

656
00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:27,789
Institute for historical review and met

657
00:24:31,529 --> 00:24:29,500
them now they have kind of a conspiracy

658
00:24:33,150 --> 00:24:31,539
theory you know that the Jews are doing

659
00:24:35,789 --> 00:24:33,160
this and the Jews are doing that and

660
00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:35,799
it's it's pretty obvious once you dig

661
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:37,900
not even very deep you know that there's

662
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:39,520
a lot of anti-semitism and particularly

663
00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:41,700
anti-zionism they don't rely cos rayul

664
00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:43,900
but they really warmed up to me just

665
00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:45,910
like not the formal interview you know

666
00:24:48,779 --> 00:24:47,140
with the microphone and stuff but

667
00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:48,789
actually just going out for a beer and

668
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:50,500
pizza afterwards and you know they kind

669
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:52,090
of open up you know at first they didn't

670
00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:53,650
say much about Israel and the Jews you

671
00:24:57,750 --> 00:24:55,720
know they're just saying well we we just

672
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,760
doubt the specific thing right here you

673
00:25:02,789 --> 00:24:59,679
know there were no holes in the in the

674
00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:02,799
gas chamber at Auschwitz Birkenau

675
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:06,070
crema number two this was a such a

676
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:08,320
classic case of you know if I can get

677
00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:10,510
some little minutiae thing and show that

678
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,190
it's wrong then the whole edifice will

679
00:25:16,409 --> 00:25:14,559
collapse and this became actually our

680
00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:16,419
little rallying cry and David Irving's

681
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:20,110
trial in England but we're no holes no

682
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:22,360
Holocaust like what you know people

683
00:25:26,730 --> 00:25:23,919
could not figure out what the hell this

684
00:25:28,289 --> 00:25:26,740
had to do with well so he says if you go

685
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:28,299
to Auschwitz Birkenau

686
00:25:33,419 --> 00:25:31,690
can you go to crema two or three the two

687
00:25:35,010 --> 00:25:33,429
big ones there was four there actually

688
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:35,020
but the two big ones there and there's

689
00:25:39,149 --> 00:25:37,480
no holes on the on the gas chamber

690
00:25:41,340 --> 00:25:39,159
ceilings well these were subterranean

691
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:41,350
gas chambers the ceiling was maybe three

692
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:44,110
feet high and the induction ports where

693
00:25:48,990 --> 00:25:46,480
they poured the zyklon-b into the

694
00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:49,000
chamber were just maybe another foot or

695
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:51,340
two above this subterranean thang anyway

696
00:25:56,820 --> 00:25:53,650
the eyewitnesses said the SS guards

697
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:56,830
clamored up on top of this roof and then

698
00:26:00,330 --> 00:25:58,480
took the lid off and poured the zyklon-b

699
00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:00,340
pellets into the wire-mesh columns and

700
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:02,950
then so the gaseum would occur okay so

701
00:26:07,529 --> 00:26:05,679
if you go there there's no holes mmm

702
00:26:09,899 --> 00:26:07,539
says David Irving so it's like what so

703
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:09,909
if that was not true and then maybe no

704
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:11,350
one was gassed at Auschwitz and if no

705
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:13,330
one was gassed at Auschwitz maybe no one

706
00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:15,070
was guest at my donek and Treblinka and

707
00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:16,750
so no one was gassed anywhere

708
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:19,390
maybe the Nazis did not have a plan to

709
00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:21,490
exterminate European Jewry maybe all

710
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:24,280
those deaths we've seen not as many as 6

711
00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:25,330
million but maybe a couple hundred

712
00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:27,190
thousand to a million or two those are

713
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:29,830
due to disease and overwork and war is

714
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:30,940
bad and so on

715
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:32,770
ok that's their argument but if you go

716
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:34,450
to Auschwitz Birkenau to cream of 2

717
00:26:36,270 --> 00:26:35,650
you'll see there's no holes because

718
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:36,280
there's no room

719
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:39,790
the Nazis dynamited as the Russians were

720
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:41,710
moving in in January 1942 feels like

721
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:44,170
well you know I could not confronted him

722
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:45,820
about this and he doesn't back down no

723
00:26:51,870 --> 00:26:48,130
no holes no Holocaust er I kind of went

724
00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:51,880
down this little rant exhibit as an

725
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:54,700
example of you know just how you take

726
00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:56,560
one little tiny thing and try to you

727
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,510
know to take down the entire edifice and

728
00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:00,640
you make this point also when you deal

729
00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:03,040
with the 9/11 truthers that you know

730
00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:05,800
they kind of feel like you can't explain

731
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:09,580
every single anomaly and the problem is

732
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:11,980
is we can't explain every single anomaly

733
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:13,570
Richard Dawkins makes this point about

734
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:15,010
the creationists they'll say if you

735
00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:18,070
can't explain the left elbow of the

736
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:20,740
Amazon green tree frog and where that

737
00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:23,170
came from then therefore evolution did

738
00:27:27,810 --> 00:27:25,060
not happen and therefore no species

739
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:27,820
evolved he's like we can't explain every

740
00:27:32,790 --> 00:27:29,410
single little thing about the living

741
00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:32,800
world and in any major event like 9/11

742
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:34,540
there's got to be just little weird

743
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:36,310
things that happen and the same thing

744
00:27:40,530 --> 00:27:38,080
with the Holocaust errs they made a big

745
00:27:43,290 --> 00:27:40,540
thing about the door at the gas chamber

746
00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:43,300
at my donek doesn't lock and if you

747
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:44,920
can't lock a gas chamber door how you

748
00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:46,090
gonna gas a bunch of people are gonna

749
00:27:50,490 --> 00:27:48,820
want to push it out so we went there my

750
00:27:54,330 --> 00:27:50,500
co-author Alex Grubman and I went there

751
00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:54,340
and so and I had a list from just when I

752
00:27:57,660 --> 00:27:55,900
went down to visit them in Costa Mesa I

753
00:27:59,460 --> 00:27:57,670
said give me your best arguments give me

754
00:28:01,110 --> 00:27:59,470
like you did 20 best arguments you have

755
00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:01,120
for why you think the Holocaust didn't

756
00:28:05,070 --> 00:28:03,580
happen so they did so I kind of went

757
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:05,080
down the list as I was writing my book

758
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:08,110
on this and so one of them was this door

759
00:28:12,510 --> 00:28:10,090
doesn't plug so Alex and I go there and

760
00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:12,520
the door is this big metal door that has

761
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:14,350
a handle that kind of moves like that

762
00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:16,690
and so the handle should go like that

763
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:19,030
where it locks into the door jamb on

764
00:28:24,420 --> 00:28:21,940
this side and and sure enough there was

765
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:24,430
no hole for this thing to jam into you

766
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:26,260
could not lock the door and I thought

767
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:28,240
that is kind of weird so I said all

768
00:28:30,780 --> 00:28:29,440
right Alex I'm gonna get in the gas

769
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,790
chamber and you hold the door and see if

770
00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:32,080
I can push it open of course I

771
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:34,180
shouldered into it and no problem push

772
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:35,410
the door right open it's like yeah that

773
00:28:38,850 --> 00:28:37,300
is kind of weird you know so we had a

774
00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:38,860
little guy like a 20 year old girl

775
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:40,870
walking us around and she got there I go

776
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:42,850
do you know why the door doesn't lock no

777
00:28:47,220 --> 00:28:45,190
so then she gets the next person up and

778
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:47,230
do you know the door doesn't lock it's

779
00:28:49,050 --> 00:28:48,370
like yeah doesn't that seem kind of

780
00:28:51,210 --> 00:28:49,060
weird

781
00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:51,220
I don't know I didn't even know and then

782
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:52,900
I get that next person up and then

783
00:28:57,510 --> 00:28:54,640
finally the head of the whole my donek

784
00:28:58,860 --> 00:28:57,520
camp which is now a museum he's like

785
00:29:01,350 --> 00:28:58,870
what's this about the door doesn't lock

786
00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:01,360
yeah you never noticed that he goes no

787
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:04,660
and then next thing I know we got kicked

788
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:05,890
out of the camp basically they thought

789
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:07,600
maybe we were there to cause trouble or

790
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:07,990
something

791
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:11,050
and I got a phone call there they go you

792
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:12,730
have a phone call dr. Schurman liked me

793
00:29:17,790 --> 00:29:15,670
at my dock what and it was the head of

794
00:29:20,790 --> 00:29:17,800
the interior of all of Austria who runs

795
00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:20,800
all of their parks and camps and museums

796
00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:21,940
and the whole thing he goes what's this

797
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:23,680
about the door doesn't lock like oh my

798
00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:26,320
god I can't believe there's I said I'm

799
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:28,990
we're just here to debunk the deniers

800
00:29:33,390 --> 00:29:31,210
and there's Alex with his yarmulke you

801
00:29:35,940 --> 00:29:33,400
know we're not skinheads or something

802
00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:35,950
right and they said we have no idea

803
00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:37,720
anyway it took me two years to find out

804
00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:39,880
that that door was taken off after the

805
00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:42,190
war and shipped off to hungry for some

806
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:44,230
museum and they just ducked some other

807
00:29:49,860 --> 00:29:47,980
door on there right you know mystery

808
00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:49,870
solved but for the deniers it's like

809
00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:52,600
a-ha we got you on that one little thing

810
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:54,190
right there and if you can't get that

811
00:29:58,830 --> 00:29:56,770
then oh yeah well it's interesting I

812
00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:58,840
know no one knew about it because for

813
00:30:02,190 --> 00:29:59,950
most people it wasn't really an

814
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:02,200
important point it's because they all

815
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:03,520
knew that the Holocaust happened so they

816
00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:05,050
didn't really look about it and that's

817
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:07,660
right that's kind of its kind of like a

818
00:30:11,670 --> 00:30:08,950
problem you come across it's kind of

819
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:11,680
asymmetry of interest in things you get

820
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:13,990
these conspiracy theorists and they're

821
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:15,340
really really into these things that

822
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:16,960
it's been hours and hours going over all

823
00:30:21,630 --> 00:30:19,090
the details and then you get on the

824
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:21,640
other side most mainstream scientists

825
00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:23,860
and historians are not interested yep

826
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:25,270
sure more about you know Holocaust

827
00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:27,250
denial but things like 9/11 and

828
00:30:32,010 --> 00:30:29,350
chemtrails and stuff there's very very

829
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:32,020
few experts who are interested in it so

830
00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:35,290
you you get in a way like this this this

831
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,300
swarm of conspiracy theorists on one

832
00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:39,520
side and then you get a few debunkers

833
00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:41,020
like like me and you on the other side

834
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:43,180
and you kind of get a bit overwhelmed

835
00:30:47,550 --> 00:30:44,530
you know in a way because there's just

836
00:30:49,710 --> 00:30:47,560
so many different things coming in so

837
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:49,720
that's kind of why I I try to use the

838
00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:52,570
tactic of getting them to focus on one

839
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:55,510
thing and really focus on one thing

840
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:57,010
because you know that the technique of

841
00:31:01,620 --> 00:30:58,960
the Gish gallop quit I'll just list off

842
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:01,630
a whole bunch of things right you got to

843
00:31:04,510 --> 00:31:02,720
stop them and

844
00:31:07,420 --> 00:31:04,520
what's your one best piece of evidence

845
00:31:09,550 --> 00:31:07,430
and a lot of the time they they they're

846
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:09,560
really reluctant to give you their best

847
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:11,630
piece of evidence because they know that

848
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:14,720
you'll be able to explain it and they'll

849
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:16,010
say no I'm not doing that because you'll

850
00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:18,290
just explain it away and I'd say yeah

851
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:20,660
that's the whole point it's all your

852
00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:23,360
best evidence is easily explainable so

853
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:25,430
you know say about the rest of the

854
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:27,890
evidence the other problem is the just

855
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:29,450
the the difficulty

856
00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:31,550
all of us have cognitively of being

857
00:31:35,260 --> 00:31:33,320
comfortable with uncertainty like just

858
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:35,270
saying I have no idea why the door

859
00:31:39,550 --> 00:31:37,220
doesn't lock or this particular thing

860
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:39,560
there and so on I mean most of the

861
00:31:42,670 --> 00:31:41,090
Holocaust historians I initially

862
00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:42,680
interview when I was writing my book

863
00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:44,840
they had no idea about most of the

864
00:31:49,690 --> 00:31:47,780
things on that list and it's like why

865
00:31:51,670 --> 00:31:49,700
would we know that I mean it's just some

866
00:31:53,410 --> 00:31:51,680
tiny little minutia that makes no

867
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:53,420
difference really and so it was kind of

868
00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:54,770
hard to track a lot of them down I

869
00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:57,350
noticed the 9/11 truthers do that there

870
00:32:00,640 --> 00:31:58,490
was something about you know somebody's

871
00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:00,650
passport ended up on the street that was

872
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:02,630
in the flight well you know I don't know

873
00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:05,090
what yeah and they have a list of things

874
00:32:11,110 --> 00:32:07,180
like that just tiny little things and

875
00:32:12,970 --> 00:32:11,120
and anyway so back to to that my friend

876
00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:12,980
Lee MacIntyre one of the points he made

877
00:32:17,650 --> 00:32:15,920
was to the flat-earthers I think maybe

878
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:17,660
you did this was what would it take to

879
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:20,480
change your mind what what what just can

880
00:32:25,090 --> 00:32:22,250
you and I agree on some tests we could

881
00:32:26,290 --> 00:32:25,100
do that I'll change my mind and agree

882
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:26,300
you're right or you'll change your mind

883
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:28,370
agree I'm right if we can look at this

884
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:30,170
one thing right here so I actually got

885
00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:33,200
one of them to agree that they would

886
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:37,070
take a flight from New Zealand over to

887
00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:39,890
the you know across the South Pole and

888
00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:42,140
so on yeah the guy was ready to do it

889
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:43,670
and like yeah okay if we can actually do

890
00:32:47,860 --> 00:32:45,410
this then I'll agree that you know it's

891
00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:47,870
obviously it's a globe and Antarctica as

892
00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:48,800
you know they they don't again

893
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:50,630
Antarctica exists it's a white and ice

894
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:52,640
wall nanni changed his mind later and

895
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:54,770
said no I think that if the pilots are

896
00:32:59,050 --> 00:32:56,210
in on the conspiracy they're just gonna

897
00:33:00,820 --> 00:32:59,060
fly around the ice wall and it'll look

898
00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:00,830
like a continent but it's not actually a

899
00:33:07,180 --> 00:33:04,040
continent and if your if your theory is

900
00:33:09,730 --> 00:33:07,190
not testable you know if if it is

901
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:09,740
absolutely irrefutable true and there's

902
00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:11,600
nothing you can do to change my mind

903
00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:13,880
then you're really off the page of

904
00:33:16,989 --> 00:33:16,550
having a conversation yeah yeah and he's

905
00:33:18,879 --> 00:33:16,999
kind of like

906
00:33:21,309 --> 00:33:18,889
yeah psychological things the stuff that

907
00:33:22,539 --> 00:33:21,319
you talk about in lessons 3 & 4

908
00:33:26,349 --> 00:33:22,549
I've already half an hour in and where I

909
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:26,359
got lesson 3 so did you pick up the pace

910
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:28,609
but yeah you took a lot about the

911
00:33:32,049 --> 00:33:30,289
cognitive biases that people have and I

912
00:33:33,729 --> 00:33:32,059
think like the big one I was gonna ask

913
00:33:35,529 --> 00:33:33,739
you like if you were to pick one of the

914
00:33:36,999 --> 00:33:35,539
cognitive biases what do you think is

915
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,009
the most significant of all the

916
00:33:41,979 --> 00:33:39,919
cognitive biases well the two big ones

917
00:33:43,479 --> 00:33:41,989
for disparity there is is confirmation

918
00:33:45,219 --> 00:33:43,489
bias in the hindsight bias confirmation

919
00:33:46,959 --> 00:33:45,229
bias you look for and find confirming

920
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:46,969
evidence that fits what you already

921
00:33:51,339 --> 00:33:48,529
believe and you ignore the disconfirming

922
00:33:53,229 --> 00:33:51,349
evidence everybody does it and this is

923
00:33:55,209 --> 00:33:53,239
what really fuels conspiracy once you

924
00:33:56,949 --> 00:33:55,219
think the Jews are doing this but the

925
00:33:58,299 --> 00:33:56,959
Muslims are doing that then all you got

926
00:34:00,069 --> 00:33:58,309
to do is just read the daily newspaper

927
00:34:02,919 --> 00:34:00,079
or just kind of look around and go aha

928
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:02,929
example example example example ignoring

929
00:34:07,479 --> 00:34:05,569
all the counter examples and that's

930
00:34:08,889 --> 00:34:07,489
probably the biggest one in case of

931
00:34:10,749 --> 00:34:08,899
conspiracy theories I find the hindsight

932
00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:10,759
bias you know after something after the

933
00:34:14,889 --> 00:34:13,129
fact reasoning after something happens

934
00:34:17,859 --> 00:34:14,899
then you go back and look at the

935
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:17,869
assorted evidence and stuff that was

936
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:20,000
going on at the time and think well they

937
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:21,649
should have known like this happened

938
00:34:26,109 --> 00:34:23,599
with the Pearl Harbor conspiracy

939
00:34:27,970 --> 00:34:26,119
theorists you know that Roosevelt knew

940
00:34:30,549 --> 00:34:27,980
that Japanese were gonna attack in Pearl

941
00:34:32,589 --> 00:34:30,559
Harbor just look here's a piece of Intel

942
00:34:34,839 --> 00:34:32,599
here in here there's three or four of

943
00:34:38,049 --> 00:34:34,849
these that's you know the Japanese may

944
00:34:39,249 --> 00:34:38,059
attack in the Hawaiian Islands but when

945
00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:39,259
you go back and look at the historical

946
00:34:42,399 --> 00:34:40,700
record in fact you know we were we had

947
00:34:44,589 --> 00:34:42,409
broken their code and there was like ten

948
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:44,599
thousand pieces of evidence and Intel

949
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:47,119
about what the Japanese might do and you

950
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:49,970
simply can't know until it already

951
00:34:52,899 --> 00:34:51,649
happens which are the ones that we

952
00:34:54,339 --> 00:34:52,909
should have been paying attention to

953
00:34:56,799 --> 00:34:54,349
this is of course a big problem with

954
00:34:59,049 --> 00:34:56,809
intelligence agencies and the same thing

955
00:35:01,359 --> 00:34:59,059
happened with 9/11 that you know there

956
00:35:03,819 --> 00:35:01,369
was that August 9th memo from

957
00:35:07,569 --> 00:35:03,829
Condoleezza Rice to Bush in his

958
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:07,579
administration you know al Qaeda intends

959
00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:09,170
to attack the United States

960
00:35:15,370 --> 00:35:13,940
on US soil okay how could he he

961
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:15,380
obviously bush knew this was going to

962
00:35:20,140 --> 00:35:16,730
happen that was August night that was

963
00:35:21,970 --> 00:35:20,150
you know weeks before 9/11 and then when

964
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:21,980
you look at what actually was going on

965
00:35:26,410 --> 00:35:24,710
again 10,000 pieces of Intel about what

966
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:26,420
Al Qaeda was doing all over the world

967
00:35:30,579 --> 00:35:28,730
only after the fact do you look at him

968
00:35:32,529 --> 00:35:30,589
though oh that's the one that we should

969
00:35:34,690 --> 00:35:32,539
paid attention to which is really not

970
00:35:36,759 --> 00:35:34,700
fair to intelligence agencies yeah

971
00:35:38,170 --> 00:35:36,769
absolutely and you talked about with the

972
00:35:39,849 --> 00:35:38,180
Pearl Harbor thing like the other

973
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:39,859
intelligence was about them actually

974
00:35:44,049 --> 00:35:42,710
attacking other things like even the the

975
00:35:47,650 --> 00:35:44,059
Philippines or somewhere like that or

976
00:35:49,630 --> 00:35:47,660
even attacks on mainland United States

977
00:35:52,059 --> 00:35:49,640
they were chattering about all kinds of

978
00:35:53,499 --> 00:35:52,069
things I think you said there was so

979
00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:53,509
much information coming through that

980
00:35:57,039 --> 00:35:55,609
they actually kind of stopped forwarding

981
00:35:58,599 --> 00:35:57,049
some of it because they were afraid was

982
00:36:00,969 --> 00:35:58,609
gonna leak and the Japanese would figure

983
00:36:02,829 --> 00:36:00,979
out that they were intercepting there

984
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,839
and breaking their code there's just so

985
00:36:07,779 --> 00:36:05,119
much stuff but yeah another example you

986
00:36:10,779 --> 00:36:07,789
gave was the Space Shuttle right they

987
00:36:12,999 --> 00:36:10,789
people thought in hindsight that it was

988
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:13,009
obvious that the Space Shuttle was going

989
00:36:18,249 --> 00:36:15,650
to fail because he's obvious that if you

990
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:18,259
cool this particular oring down then it

991
00:36:24,099 --> 00:36:21,890
loses its stiffness its possibility yeah

992
00:36:26,859 --> 00:36:24,109
but again that's the hindsight bias in

993
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:26,869
action yeah exactly after a disaster

994
00:36:30,729 --> 00:36:28,910
it's easy to figure out you know what we

995
00:36:32,769 --> 00:36:30,739
should have done to prevent it complex

996
00:36:35,019 --> 00:36:32,779
systems like that economy's political

997
00:36:37,930 --> 00:36:35,029
systems complex machines like the Space

998
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:37,940
Shuttle you know things are bound to go

999
00:36:41,049 --> 00:36:39,200
wrong you know the second law of

1000
00:36:42,819 --> 00:36:41,059
thermodynamics entropy you know there's

1001
00:36:45,459 --> 00:36:42,829
more ways for things to go wrong than to

1002
00:36:48,339 --> 00:36:45,469
go right inevitably systems are gonna

1003
00:36:50,049 --> 00:36:48,349
fail and but it's so difficult to

1004
00:36:52,359 --> 00:36:50,059
predict ahead of time you know which

1005
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:52,369
pathway is gonna is gonna end up leading

1006
00:36:56,739 --> 00:36:54,890
to failure only after the fact and then

1007
00:36:58,359 --> 00:36:56,749
you throw in some pattern isset II and

1008
00:37:00,309 --> 00:36:58,369
agent isset II where you are sure

1009
00:37:03,009 --> 00:37:00,319
there's some agent behind the pattern

1010
00:37:04,839 --> 00:37:03,019
you've just found in hindsight that was

1011
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:04,849
pulling the strings to make it happen or

1012
00:37:08,319 --> 00:37:06,079
they should have prevented it from

1013
00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:08,329
happening and that sort of thing again

1014
00:37:13,630 --> 00:37:10,670
hindsight 20/20 and that's the problem

1015
00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:13,640
yeah I was actually thinking you were

1016
00:37:18,609 --> 00:37:14,960
gonna go for cognitive dissonance

1017
00:37:21,069 --> 00:37:18,619
because that seems to be underlying

1018
00:37:22,989 --> 00:37:21,079
everything yeah that's true that's

1019
00:37:24,219 --> 00:37:22,999
another underlying one Carol Tavis has a

1020
00:37:25,269 --> 00:37:24,229
great book on that mistakes were made

1021
00:37:27,459 --> 00:37:25,279
but not by me

1022
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:27,469
and sort of sort of the whole history of

1023
00:37:30,819 --> 00:37:29,359
the literature on cognitive dissonance

1024
00:37:33,459 --> 00:37:30,829
I liked it with conspiracy theories

1025
00:37:35,469 --> 00:37:33,469
because there's a dissonance between the

1026
00:37:39,489 --> 00:37:35,479
size of the event and the cause of the

1027
00:37:42,099 --> 00:37:39,499
events of the assassination of JFK you

1028
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:42,109
know the most powerful leader of the

1029
00:37:45,470 --> 00:37:43,410
free world

1030
00:37:48,589 --> 00:37:45,480
and articulate and handsome and so on

1031
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:48,599
and he was taken out by who Lee Harvey

1032
00:37:52,819 --> 00:37:50,760
Oswald some lone nut' no no that doesn't

1033
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,829
you know so we want the it's like the

1034
00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:54,480
Holocaust is one of the worst things

1035
00:37:57,140 --> 00:37:55,380
that's ever happened in history

1036
00:38:00,410 --> 00:37:57,150
committed by the Nazis one of the worst

1037
00:38:02,210 --> 00:38:00,420
regimes in history so the end of a make

1038
00:38:02,740 --> 00:38:02,220
sense harmony between the cause and the

1039
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:02,750
effect

1040
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:05,690
9/11 you tell you you you've heard the

1041
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:07,890
9/11 truthers say this you know you mean

1042
00:38:11,390 --> 00:38:09,930
nineteen guys with box cutters brought

1043
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:11,400
down the you know world's largest

1044
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:13,020
military come on

1045
00:38:16,789 --> 00:38:14,970
impossible you know again you have the

1046
00:38:18,620 --> 00:38:16,799
size of the cause and the size the size

1047
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:18,630
of the event the size of the cod doesn't

1048
00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:19,380
feel right

1049
00:38:24,650 --> 00:38:22,200
Princess Diana cause of death drunk

1050
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:24,660
driving speeding no seatbelts you know I

1051
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:26,730
don't know was a million people a year

1052
00:38:30,170 --> 00:38:28,410
die of those causes in automobile

1053
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:30,180
accidents around the world something

1054
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:31,650
like forty thousand in America alone

1055
00:38:35,809 --> 00:38:33,839
most of those are by one of those three

1056
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:35,819
causes are all three but princesses

1057
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:38,880
don't die the way normal people die so

1058
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:40,890
it had to be the royal family or you

1059
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:43,020
know whoever mi5 and so on that we're in

1060
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:43,440
on it

1061
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:45,450
see you start stacking in more and more

1062
00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:48,510
people to make that the cognitive

1063
00:38:53,180 --> 00:38:49,950
dissonance balance and so you have

1064
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:53,190
harmony so again you know JFK well as

1065
00:38:59,180 --> 00:38:55,440
they you know as the the Cubans and the

1066
00:39:00,500 --> 00:38:59,190
Russians and the KGB and the CIA and so

1067
00:39:02,750 --> 00:39:00,510
on they all were in on it all the way up

1068
00:39:05,660 --> 00:39:02,760
to President Johnson and I thought

1069
00:39:08,539 --> 00:39:05,670
Oliver Stone's film and is another sort

1070
00:39:11,299 --> 00:39:08,549
of sidebar the power of visual narrative

1071
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:11,309
you know Oliver Stone is such a good

1072
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:13,020
filmmaker that you know even though I

1073
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:14,730
was pretty skeptical of most of this way

1074
00:39:18,349 --> 00:39:15,960
by the time I got to the end of that

1075
00:39:20,359 --> 00:39:18,359
film I thought my god if only like a

1076
00:39:21,950 --> 00:39:20,369
half of this is true or ten percent of

1077
00:39:24,410 --> 00:39:21,960
is true there's got to be a conspiracy

1078
00:39:26,299 --> 00:39:24,420
yeah and then websites popped up going

1079
00:39:28,220 --> 00:39:26,309
here's that one hundred things he got

1080
00:39:33,349 --> 00:39:28,230
wrong in this movie is like oh crap

1081
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:33,359
wow yeah I remember watching JFK and I

1082
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,609
didn't know very much about the

1083
00:39:40,279 --> 00:39:37,440
conspiracy theories at the time and and

1084
00:39:43,339 --> 00:39:40,289
you just see it all laid out on screen

1085
00:39:44,809 --> 00:39:43,349
in such a compelling way that it just it

1086
00:39:47,150 --> 00:39:44,819
just it's like hammering it into your

1087
00:39:49,309 --> 00:39:47,160
brain you know this is obviously you

1088
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:49,319
know very very suspicious and something

1089
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:51,210
must have gone wrong like they they talk

1090
00:39:56,090 --> 00:39:53,609
about the one thing is the Magic Bullet

1091
00:39:59,540 --> 00:39:56,100
and of course they portray it

1092
00:40:01,880 --> 00:39:59,550
and the in the movie as if you know the

1093
00:40:04,070 --> 00:40:01,890
but the bullet have to change direction

1094
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,080
in midair and do a twist and things like

1095
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,000
that and then magically come out

1096
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:08,880
unscathed the other side and when you

1097
00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:10,890
see it there on the big screen even

1098
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:12,750
though you know it's just a movie it

1099
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:16,410
really is very compelling totally back

1100
00:40:20,780 --> 00:40:18,390
into the left back into the left they

1101
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:20,790
just repeated that yes like my god yes

1102
00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:23,570
look it's going back into the left Wow

1103
00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:27,630
yeah that's his do you think like if we

1104
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:31,740
hadn't had the JFK movie yeah that kind

1105
00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:34,230
of the conspiracy spear would be at all

1106
00:40:40,430 --> 00:40:38,460
different regarding JFK or all

1107
00:40:43,220 --> 00:40:40,440
conspiracies well both like you know

1108
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:43,230
with JFK like I think so many people

1109
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:45,690
were influenced by it but then Jake Kane

1110
00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:47,130
away is kind of a foundational belief

1111
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:49,590
for a lot of conspiracy theorists yeah

1112
00:40:54,770 --> 00:40:51,930
yeah Vincent Bugliosi has a story in his

1113
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:54,780
huge book on reclaiming history is

1114
00:40:59,810 --> 00:40:57,810
called and he to his credit he went

1115
00:41:02,510 --> 00:40:59,820
through every single one of the JFK

1116
00:41:03,950 --> 00:41:02,520
conspiracy theorists and detail every

1117
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:03,960
single minutiae point which is why that

1118
00:41:09,410 --> 00:41:07,050
book is like 1,400 pages long but he he

1119
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:09,420
talked about he was at a conference of

1120
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:12,570
lawyers right after the JFK film came

1121
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:14,310
out and everybody's seen it how many of

1122
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:16,320
you seen everybody seen it how many

1123
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:18,510
think that you know that there's that

1124
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:20,940
the Warren Report was mistaken and that

1125
00:41:24,020 --> 00:41:22,590
there was a conspiracy pretty much every

1126
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:24,030
hand goes up it's like how many of you

1127
00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:25,770
have read the Warren Report nobody'd

1128
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:27,900
read the Warren Report it so here's that

1129
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:29,850
here's a roomful of criminal lawyers

1130
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:31,200
this is their job

1131
00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:33,720
and they had not even read the report

1132
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:35,340
and they've already decided simply by

1133
00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:39,330
the power of the film yeah and it's

1134
00:41:44,660 --> 00:41:41,460
exactly the same way 9/11 they don't

1135
00:41:46,850 --> 00:41:44,670
read the reports the next report or the

1136
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:46,860
9/11 Commission report so you know even

1137
00:41:49,610 --> 00:41:47,970
though there's a great reports and

1138
00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:49,620
they've got lots of detail in them they

1139
00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:52,070
just they just assume that they're wrong

1140
00:41:57,050 --> 00:41:54,900
that's right yeah well even loose change

1141
00:42:00,320 --> 00:41:57,060
which was you know nothing like a an

1142
00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:00,330
Oliver Stone film with movie stars you

1143
00:42:04,970 --> 00:42:01,680
know it was long enough and there was

1144
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:04,980
enough stuff tossed into the mix and the

1145
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:07,290
way the guy presented it like I'm not

1146
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:09,250
saying this is the but but I'm

1147
00:42:13,349 --> 00:42:11,290
I'm just curious I just can't explain

1148
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:13,359
I'm not sure what this is this kind of

1149
00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:16,090
weird and yeah I'm totally skeptical of

1150
00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:17,470
loose change but I'm watching it going

1151
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:20,440
yeah yeah that is kind of weird and you

1152
00:42:24,089 --> 00:42:22,210
know until you get into it and go okay

1153
00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:24,099
so this and this and this and this it

1154
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:26,140
you know has explanations and again back

1155
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:28,090
to the problem of anomalies maybe this

1156
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:29,530
is a blue would be another one of our

1157
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:31,630
cognitive biases that we're not

1158
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:34,690
comfortable with unknown anomalies we

1159
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:36,400
have we want an explanation for

1160
00:42:40,830 --> 00:42:39,130
everything and you know it's just okay

1161
00:42:44,730 --> 00:42:40,840
to say I don't know I mean like with the

1162
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:44,740
UFO field you know there's you know tens

1163
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:47,440
of thousands of sightings I have no idea

1164
00:42:52,050 --> 00:42:49,599
about most of those 10,000 I could

1165
00:42:53,790 --> 00:42:52,060
explain these over here the big ones but

1166
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:53,800
it's okay to just say I don't know what

1167
00:42:58,290 --> 00:42:55,510
it was maybe it was a flock of geese

1168
00:43:00,930 --> 00:42:58,300
maybe it was a experimental test plane

1169
00:43:03,210 --> 00:43:00,940
maybe it was a Balu who knows yeah no

1170
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:03,220
but but psychologically most of us are

1171
00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:04,330
not comfortable with that

1172
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:07,150
and you can talk about how these these

1173
00:43:13,530 --> 00:43:10,240
biases I kind of have evolutionary basis

1174
00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:13,540
like people even then it's a natural

1175
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:16,660
thing to be suspicious of things but

1176
00:43:20,190 --> 00:43:18,310
something else you talk about this kind

1177
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:20,200
of a natural thing is that the the brain

1178
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:22,690
is a believing brain so it almost seems

1179
00:43:26,130 --> 00:43:24,490
like to me there's like this it's kind

1180
00:43:28,890 --> 00:43:26,140
of conflict in a way in those two things

1181
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:28,900
like the brain is has evolved to believe

1182
00:43:34,170 --> 00:43:31,510
things it's also evolved to be very

1183
00:43:37,290 --> 00:43:34,180
suspicious of things yeah are they are

1184
00:43:39,060 --> 00:43:37,300
they different things I think they're

1185
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:39,070
related okay so let's just unpack that

1186
00:43:43,410 --> 00:43:40,930
so you know in the believing brain I

1187
00:43:46,050 --> 00:43:43,420
talked about the default position is

1188
00:43:48,810 --> 00:43:46,060
just to that the moment you make a

1189
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:48,820
connection between a and B this is

1190
00:43:52,859 --> 00:43:50,650
called learning you know the organism

1191
00:43:55,050 --> 00:43:52,869
now associates the Bell with the food

1192
00:43:56,609 --> 00:43:55,060
and therefore when you ring the bell he

1193
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,619
you know he salivates to the food

1194
00:44:00,450 --> 00:43:59,200
Pavlov's dog or Skinner's rats pressing

1195
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:00,460
the bar and so once they've learned it

1196
00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:01,450
they've assumed there's a real

1197
00:44:04,650 --> 00:44:03,460
connection and for good reason because

1198
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:04,660
they're probably really is a good

1199
00:44:08,609 --> 00:44:06,490
connection then I make the argument

1200
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:08,619
about type 1 and type 2 errors one is

1201
00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:10,450
more costly than the other if you hear a

1202
00:44:14,099 --> 00:44:11,980
rustle in the grass is it a dangerous

1203
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:14,109
predator just the wind I'm arguing

1204
00:44:18,450 --> 00:44:16,720
natural selection would have selected us

1205
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:18,460
to have brains that just assume the

1206
00:44:22,099 --> 00:44:20,410
rustles in the grass are more likely to

1207
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:22,109
be dangerous predators

1208
00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:24,450
because assuming that it's just it's the

1209
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:25,950
dangerous predator and turns out it's

1210
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:27,690
just the wind a type one error false

1211
00:44:30,829 --> 00:44:29,970
positive there's a relatively cost

1212
00:44:33,710 --> 00:44:30,839
low-cost

1213
00:44:34,970 --> 00:44:33,720
error to make no harm no foul but if you

1214
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:34,980
assume the other that the rustle in the

1215
00:44:39,019 --> 00:44:37,049
grass is just the wind instead it's a

1216
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:39,029
dangerous predator your lunch you get a

1217
00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:40,529
Darwin Award for taking yourself out of

1218
00:44:46,220 --> 00:44:42,390
the gene pool early so natural selection

1219
00:44:47,569 --> 00:44:46,230
selected for us to assume most Russell's

1220
00:44:50,210 --> 00:44:47,579
in the grass or dangerous predators okay

1221
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:50,220
so this was my argument for why a deeper

1222
00:44:53,029 --> 00:44:51,390
reason for why people believe we're

1223
00:44:55,549 --> 00:44:53,039
things is because we have to believe

1224
00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:55,559
things and weird things are not

1225
00:44:59,900 --> 00:44:57,660
generally all that costly so it's just

1226
00:45:02,359 --> 00:44:59,910
easier to assume most things are true

1227
00:45:04,970 --> 00:45:02,369
and so this is the basis of magical

1228
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:04,980
thinking superstition even claims like

1229
00:45:09,049 --> 00:45:07,140
autism and vaccinations that's a simple

1230
00:45:11,269 --> 00:45:09,059
anecdotal you know what's the last thing

1231
00:45:11,839 --> 00:45:11,279
I did before my kid got diagnosed with

1232
00:45:14,029 --> 00:45:11,849
autism

1233
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:14,039
oh I remember we got him vaccinated and

1234
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:15,839
then you you get that meme going and

1235
00:45:18,499 --> 00:45:17,220
then you have that one study that was

1236
00:45:21,529 --> 00:45:18,509
debunked but no one accepts the

1237
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:21,539
debunking of the study by Wakefield and

1238
00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:23,670
now you have this whole movement of

1239
00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:25,950
which is a kind of conspiracy theory you

1240
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:27,359
know the government the pharmaceutical

1241
00:45:31,099 --> 00:45:29,130
companies are all in on the vaccines and

1242
00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:31,109
they don't care about our kids it's

1243
00:45:35,089 --> 00:45:33,180
crazy but that the deeper cause behind

1244
00:45:38,329 --> 00:45:35,099
that is just anecdotal thinking

1245
00:45:40,249 --> 00:45:38,339
connecting A to B and then I then I add

1246
00:45:42,019 --> 00:45:40,259
to that pattern is to the agent issah t

1247
00:45:44,420 --> 00:45:42,029
that that we infuse those patterns with

1248
00:45:46,130 --> 00:45:44,430
agency there's somebody behind that

1249
00:45:48,829 --> 00:45:46,140
pattern that's making that happen

1250
00:45:51,859 --> 00:45:48,839
that that causes that because predators

1251
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:51,869
are intentional agents Dan Dennett makes

1252
00:45:58,029 --> 00:45:54,480
this argument about an intentionality

1253
00:46:00,849 --> 00:45:58,039
that that our brains are wired to assume

1254
00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:00,859
kind of an agency or intention behind

1255
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:04,950
causal vectors so you we're not wired

1256
00:46:09,710 --> 00:46:07,140
really well to understand the physical

1257
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:09,720
world you know quantum physics and and

1258
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:12,930
so on there's nothing in our African

1259
00:46:18,979 --> 00:46:16,140
ancestry to glom on to most physical

1260
00:46:20,660 --> 00:46:18,989
laws of nature so we just assume that

1261
00:46:22,789 --> 00:46:20,670
you know the wind has something behind

1262
00:46:25,069 --> 00:46:22,799
it the Lightning has gods behind it or

1263
00:46:27,019 --> 00:46:25,079
whatever the basis of animism and

1264
00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:27,029
spiritualism and polytheism and

1265
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:30,660
monotheism and so forth now the second

1266
00:46:34,609 --> 00:46:33,119
part to deepak that is i got this idea

1267
00:46:36,110 --> 00:46:34,619
from jared diamond when he talked about

1268
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:36,120
going to pop in again

1269
00:46:40,670 --> 00:46:38,640
and pitching his tent he was initially

1270
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:40,680
went to go birding because he was

1271
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:42,570
interested in ornithology but they'd be

1272
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,490
out camping with his Papua New Guinean

1273
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:46,800
natives and he supposed pitched the tent

1274
00:46:50,420 --> 00:46:48,570
underneath this tree and they're like no

1275
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:50,430
trees fall and then you could die in the

1276
00:46:53,810 --> 00:46:51,930
middle of the night it goes with chances

1277
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:53,820
of that particular tree falling or very

1278
00:46:58,700 --> 00:46:57,210
very low so that's too much paranoia but

1279
00:47:00,650 --> 00:46:58,710
then he got to thinking well if we sleep

1280
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:00,660
under a tree every single night for 365

1281
00:47:05,150 --> 00:47:02,940
days a year and we hear trees falling

1282
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:05,160
maybe once every thousand trees or

1283
00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:08,010
thousand and once every thousand a tree

1284
00:47:12,860 --> 00:47:10,140
is going to kill you in it within three

1285
00:47:16,070 --> 00:47:12,870
years so it's best to be constructively

1286
00:47:17,860 --> 00:47:16,080
paranoid paranoid and then I drill down

1287
00:47:20,060 --> 00:47:17,870
a little bit more on that to talk about

1288
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:20,070
you know what's behind that is the

1289
00:47:23,780 --> 00:47:21,810
second law of thermodynamics and entropy

1290
00:47:25,810 --> 00:47:23,790
and the fact that there's so many more

1291
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:25,820
ways for things to go wrong than right

1292
00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:28,650
you know in terms of our bodies you'd

1293
00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:30,270
have to have all these systems operating

1294
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:32,430
fairly well effectively to keep living

1295
00:47:36,020 --> 00:47:34,650
it only takes one of them to go wrong

1296
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:36,030
you know the heart stops beating the

1297
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:38,130
valve goes wrong a you know a plate a

1298
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:40,290
brain bleed due to a clogged artery

1299
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:41,730
whatever there's you know a thousand

1300
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:44,910
things that could kill you and so Pinker

1301
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:46,710
makes this argument in lightning in this

1302
00:47:51,620 --> 00:47:49,680
book enlightenment now that that he's

1303
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:51,630
kind of summarizing the research on the

1304
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:54,060
negativity bias that is we tend to focus

1305
00:47:57,710 --> 00:47:56,160
on negative things more than positive

1306
00:48:00,860 --> 00:47:57,720
things we have more words to describe

1307
00:48:03,050 --> 00:48:00,870
negative things negative emotions have

1308
00:48:05,060 --> 00:48:03,060
more adjectives than positive emotions

1309
00:48:07,850 --> 00:48:05,070
and on and on and on it goes

1310
00:48:09,770 --> 00:48:07,860
you know athletes are more afraid of

1311
00:48:11,660 --> 00:48:09,780
losing than they are winning the you

1312
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:11,670
know yeah economists talk about loss

1313
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:14,010
aversion losses hurt twice as much as

1314
00:48:18,110 --> 00:48:16,710
gains feel good so you have to make it a

1315
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:18,120
get somebody to make an investment you

1316
00:48:20,750 --> 00:48:19,440
have to convince them that the payoff is

1317
00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:20,760
going to be twice what the potential

1318
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:22,350
loss could be before they're willing to

1319
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:23,280
take that anyway

1320
00:48:28,910 --> 00:48:27,690
I memorize all that yeah it's it's you

1321
00:48:31,610 --> 00:48:28,920
know it's fascinating thinking about how

1322
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:31,620
yeah the brain evolves to do that but

1323
00:48:34,910 --> 00:48:32,730
like you know right now we're in a

1324
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:34,920
situation where conspiracy theories are

1325
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:38,910
about distrust of the government those

1326
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:40,170
in power you think that just kind of

1327
00:48:44,810 --> 00:48:43,110
come is like a translation of they

1328
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:44,820
believe where things happen something is

1329
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:46,170
behind that and then the only thing

1330
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:47,850
that's available to be behind that is

1331
00:48:51,630 --> 00:48:49,810
the government so naturally for

1332
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:51,640
on the government as being the

1333
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:53,950
suspicious yeah that's exactly that's

1334
00:48:58,860 --> 00:48:57,250
right so again most negative spirit ETS

1335
00:49:01,530 --> 00:48:58,870
have a negative valence to them and this

1336
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:01,540
was my explanation for why no one argues

1337
00:49:06,860 --> 00:49:04,710
that there's been this conspiracy to

1338
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:06,870
drive the arc of the moral universe

1339
00:49:11,310 --> 00:49:10,000
toward freedom and justice you know that

1340
00:49:13,650 --> 00:49:11,320
there's been these secret operative

1341
00:49:15,630 --> 00:49:13,660
forces to you know ban slavery and

1342
00:49:18,030 --> 00:49:15,640
overturn capital punishment and end

1343
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:18,040
torture and give women the right to vote

1344
00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:20,650
and get engaged the right to marry and

1345
00:49:25,140 --> 00:49:23,020
so on no one has a conspiracy theory

1346
00:49:26,850 --> 00:49:25,150
about this in fact when I wrote my book

1347
00:49:28,530 --> 00:49:26,860
the moral arc it was kind of hard to

1348
00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:28,540
figure out yet what has been driving

1349
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:31,180
this because there is a part there's

1350
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,010
definitely a kind of progress to history

1351
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:35,200
but it's this sort of this bottom-up

1352
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:37,570
directionless nobody is trying to make

1353
00:49:42,210 --> 00:49:39,760
this happen just all of us individually

1354
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:42,220
or women you know protesting and

1355
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:44,050
demanding the right to vote against the

1356
00:49:47,540 --> 00:49:46,000
resistance of the whole system and so on

1357
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:47,550
it's all this kind of bottom-up

1358
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,170
television scripts have changed comic

1359
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:52,000
books have changed television shows have

1360
00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:54,970
changes the way we talk about other

1361
00:49:59,370 --> 00:49:56,710
people Dawkins makes this point in the

1362
00:50:01,110 --> 00:49:59,380
God Delusion II as a chapter on the

1363
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:01,120
changing moral zeitgeist like you could

1364
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:03,610
pinpoint when a novel was written down

1365
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:06,250
to about the decade as to how they talk

1366
00:50:11,250 --> 00:50:09,430
about Jews and blacks and women and it's

1367
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:11,260
like and and and he gives examples and

1368
00:50:15,570 --> 00:50:13,930
they're just painful to read God this

1369
00:50:17,220 --> 00:50:15,580
was like not even a century ago they

1370
00:50:19,890 --> 00:50:17,230
were talking about Jews and blacks this

1371
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:19,900
way terrible and butthat but how did

1372
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:22,000
that happen no one conspired to make

1373
00:50:24,990 --> 00:50:22,720
that happen

1374
00:50:27,180 --> 00:50:25,000
it just happened from the bottom up I

1375
00:50:29,100 --> 00:50:27,190
suppose the religious people will say

1376
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:29,110
that it's part of God's plan but then

1377
00:50:34,740 --> 00:50:31,210
why do you God start with everything

1378
00:50:37,650 --> 00:50:34,750
being so bad yes or or why did he wait

1379
00:50:39,660 --> 00:50:37,660
2,000 years you know or Jesus gave this

1380
00:50:41,550 --> 00:50:39,670
commandment and and look the Christians

1381
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:41,560
you know led the abolition of slavery

1382
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:43,930
it's like hold on first of all that took

1383
00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:45,520
you know seventeen hundred years between

1384
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:47,590
Jesus and the abolition of slavery and

1385
00:50:52,830 --> 00:50:49,690
second of all all of the people that

1386
00:50:54,990 --> 00:50:52,840
resisted the Quakers and a few

1387
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:55,000
Episcopalians and a few others we're

1388
00:50:59,010 --> 00:50:57,520
Christians they all conspired to keep

1389
00:51:00,180 --> 00:50:59,020
slavery going because it says right

1390
00:51:02,010 --> 00:51:00,190
there in the Bible this is the way it's

1391
00:51:03,089 --> 00:51:02,020
supposed to be and God wants the races

1392
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:03,099
to be

1393
00:51:07,589 --> 00:51:04,390
and continents that that was an argument

1394
00:51:09,660 --> 00:51:07,599
made as late as 1967 in the United

1395
00:51:13,319 --> 00:51:09,670
States in opposition to same-sex

1396
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:13,329
marriage interracial marriage that God

1397
00:51:17,549 --> 00:51:16,210
and God intended the races to be on

1398
00:51:20,670 --> 00:51:17,559
separate continents they should have

1399
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:20,680
never mixed it's like this is 1960

1400
00:51:26,999 --> 00:51:25,690
that's incredible yeah so uh this can

1401
00:51:29,219 --> 00:51:27,009
get back to go back going back through

1402
00:51:33,569 --> 00:51:29,229
your course you've got two very good

1403
00:51:37,170 --> 00:51:33,579
chapters lessons 8 and 9 which are on

1404
00:51:39,390 --> 00:51:37,180
9/11 and JFK and you did have a very

1405
00:51:41,819 --> 00:51:39,400
detailed point-by-point debunking of the

1406
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:41,829
major issues and that like did you pick

1407
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:43,569
those because those are the ones that

1408
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:45,670
you personally am most familiar with you

1409
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:47,710
did these episodes of skeptic magazine

1410
00:51:52,829 --> 00:51:50,910
on them yeah yeah in part but also

1411
00:51:54,839 --> 00:51:52,839
because they're important because people

1412
00:51:57,599 --> 00:51:54,849
care about them I mean that those are

1413
00:51:59,069 --> 00:51:57,609
probably the two most popular conspiracy

1414
00:52:00,779 --> 00:51:59,079
theories as you know because you've

1415
00:52:02,819 --> 00:52:00,789
written about them and you've gotten

1416
00:52:04,499 --> 00:52:02,829
into the weeds with these guys I mean I

1417
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:04,509
was just watching your the clip about

1418
00:52:09,839 --> 00:52:08,710
the little Tic Tac UFO and I don't

1419
00:52:11,370 --> 00:52:09,849
remember it was the Tic Tac or the other

1420
00:52:13,079 --> 00:52:11,380
one but it had to do with the camera

1421
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:13,089
zooming in and out that made it look

1422
00:52:17,489 --> 00:52:14,710
like it was moving faster than any

1423
00:52:20,249 --> 00:52:17,499
physical object can move according to

1424
00:52:22,109 --> 00:52:20,259
modern physics and so on and to me this

1425
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:22,119
was such a great example of what you did

1426
00:52:27,209 --> 00:52:24,640
if debunking in a way a very specific

1427
00:52:30,930 --> 00:52:27,219
way to solve a much larger problem which

1428
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:30,940
is that this if I assume this is true

1429
00:52:36,209 --> 00:52:33,249
that this object I'm seeing on the video

1430
00:52:38,849 --> 00:52:36,219
is moving faster than it is possible for

1431
00:52:40,859 --> 00:52:38,859
any physical object to move under our

1432
00:52:44,660 --> 00:52:40,869
current technological engineering

1433
00:52:47,609 --> 00:52:44,670
capability therefore it has to be

1434
00:52:49,019 --> 00:52:47,619
extraterrestrial how about your

1435
00:52:51,509 --> 00:52:49,029
assumption that it's moving at that

1436
00:52:54,180 --> 00:52:51,519
speed is wrong what if it isn't

1437
00:52:56,670 --> 00:52:54,190
accurately portrayed in a video that the

1438
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:56,680
video is zooming in and out is making it

1439
00:52:59,940 --> 00:52:58,450
look like it's moving faster then

1440
00:53:02,039 --> 00:52:59,950
everything else falls away

1441
00:53:04,469 --> 00:53:02,049
none of those explanations are necessary

1442
00:53:06,420 --> 00:53:04,479
to me that's why it pays to get into the

1443
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:06,430
weeds you have to do that with these

1444
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:08,049
conspiracies because they're you know

1445
00:53:11,099 --> 00:53:09,609
they're glomming on to that one little

1446
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:11,109
thing if you can show that one little

1447
00:53:16,620 --> 00:53:14,650
thing is not necessarily true then you

1448
00:53:18,060 --> 00:53:16,630
kind of have to take a step back

1449
00:53:20,340 --> 00:53:18,070
well then you do have to really address

1450
00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:20,350
all the weeds because unfortunately they

1451
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:22,870
can just move to one different you know

1452
00:53:26,940 --> 00:53:25,450
wheat and and go with that like we're

1453
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:26,950
talking about earlier with the geese

1454
00:53:31,530 --> 00:53:28,720
gallop they they don't like to pick one

1455
00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,540
thing so the hard part there is as you

1456
00:53:36,690 --> 00:53:34,000
know is so you know they have to say a

1457
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:36,700
hundred points and you explain 50 of

1458
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:38,890
them what what do you do with the other

1459
00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:42,610
fifty you know and maybe they'll never

1460
00:53:46,380 --> 00:53:44,260
be explained you know there was just

1461
00:53:48,150 --> 00:53:46,390
just there's anomalies you know there

1462
00:53:49,710 --> 00:53:48,160
was nobody else there in the in the

1463
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:49,720
wheat field at 3:00 in the morning who

1464
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:52,330
knows what that thing was if there was

1465
00:53:57,060 --> 00:53:55,450
anything at all and you know I guess you

1466
00:53:58,680 --> 00:53:57,070
know it's just back to that psychology

1467
00:54:01,470 --> 00:53:58,690
of just you know whether or not you're

1468
00:54:03,690 --> 00:54:01,480
comfortable with uncertainty people that

1469
00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:03,700
are low uncomfortable being

1470
00:54:06,930 --> 00:54:05,200
uncomfortable with certainty are higher

1471
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:06,940
in conspiratorial thinking we know this

1472
00:54:11,340 --> 00:54:09,370
from research on-site by psychologists

1473
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:11,350
that you know that people that are more

1474
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:12,610
fearful or anxious

1475
00:54:16,860 --> 00:54:15,040
neither primed to be so an experimental

1476
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:16,870
condition or they are just by

1477
00:54:20,850 --> 00:54:18,490
temperament are more conspiratorial

1478
00:54:22,620 --> 00:54:20,860
minded my colleagues at Chapman did some

1479
00:54:24,090 --> 00:54:22,630
studies on this showing you know people

1480
00:54:25,590 --> 00:54:24,100
that are more fearful or more and more

1481
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:25,600
conspiratorial in mind and are more

1482
00:54:30,510 --> 00:54:28,450
likely to buy a gun for example oh boy

1483
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:30,520
here we go real-world consequences of

1484
00:54:35,610 --> 00:54:33,730
conspiratorial thinking the the various

1485
00:54:38,580 --> 00:54:35,620
that is being done you you talk about a

1486
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:38,590
lot of them and I think like lesson

1487
00:54:46,860 --> 00:54:43,210
three about the correlations between

1488
00:54:49,350 --> 00:54:46,870
various traits and conspiracism do you

1489
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:49,360
think those are useful to know when

1490
00:54:53,220 --> 00:54:51,370
you're dealing with an individual cuz I

1491
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:53,230
mean I think that they're useful in the

1492
00:54:56,940 --> 00:54:54,910
aggregate if you thinking about like

1493
00:54:59,700 --> 00:54:56,950
social policy or ways of reaching a

1494
00:55:01,680 --> 00:54:59,710
large number of people but other ways

1495
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:01,690
you can kind of leverage knowing that

1496
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:04,690
someone might be you know whatever he

1497
00:55:07,860 --> 00:55:06,970
has a certain pattern is to see tendency

1498
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:07,870
or something like that for the

1499
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:09,910
individual because I kind of glossed

1500
00:55:13,350 --> 00:55:11,890
over that a bit in my book like it's not

1501
00:55:16,740 --> 00:55:13,360
being that's important because it's hard

1502
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:16,750
to I agree I think it's good to know

1503
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:18,790
that just theoretically and if we want

1504
00:55:22,650 --> 00:55:20,410
to construct a model of conspiracism

1505
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:22,660
that's important to know engaging with

1506
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:24,370
people no I wouldn't say to somebody oh

1507
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:26,290
well so you're a paranoid personality or

1508
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:28,210
you're low and openness to experience or

1509
00:55:30,130 --> 00:55:29,680
you're high and conscientiousness or

1510
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:30,140
here

1511
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:32,450
whatever cuz you know they no one wants

1512
00:55:37,509 --> 00:55:35,599
to be you know stereotyped at place by

1513
00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:37,519
something like that because they don't

1514
00:55:42,220 --> 00:55:40,609
think that any in any case I mean again

1515
00:55:43,660 --> 00:55:42,230
this is a point I'm making in other

1516
00:55:45,999 --> 00:55:43,670
areas you know no one in the history of

1517
00:55:47,499 --> 00:55:46,009
the world has ever joined a cult they

1518
00:55:49,150 --> 00:55:47,509
join a group that they think is a really

1519
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:49,160
good group we're gonna help humanity

1520
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:51,170
we're gonna save the help the poor I'm

1521
00:55:55,989 --> 00:55:54,890
gonna get rich and and so forth yeah and

1522
00:55:57,749 --> 00:55:55,999
no one in the history of the world has

1523
00:55:59,979 --> 00:55:57,759
ever identified as a pseudo scientist

1524
00:56:01,539 --> 00:55:59,989
you know they that the people that

1525
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:01,549
so-called pseudo scientists I've dealt

1526
00:56:05,589 --> 00:56:03,650
what they all are sure that they have

1527
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:05,599
the correct theory of physics or oh yeah

1528
00:56:08,650 --> 00:56:07,249
you know your theory of evolution is

1529
00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:08,660
wrong but I've got it all worked out

1530
00:56:12,609 --> 00:56:10,910
here and Einstein was wrong and and

1531
00:56:14,140 --> 00:56:12,619
Stephen Hawking was wrong and I have

1532
00:56:15,970 --> 00:56:14,150
this new theory of physics I get these

1533
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:15,980
you know these theories every every

1534
00:56:20,499 --> 00:56:18,799
month and it's like they don't think I'm

1535
00:56:22,329 --> 00:56:20,509
a pseudo scientist going down to my

1536
00:56:23,410 --> 00:56:22,339
pseudo lab to collect pseudo facts for

1537
00:56:25,359 --> 00:56:23,420
my pseudo theory they think they're

1538
00:56:28,690 --> 00:56:25,369
right you know so it doesn't help to you

1539
00:56:30,729 --> 00:56:28,700
know gauge people on that level I always

1540
00:56:32,349 --> 00:56:30,739
just try to again like you just try to

1541
00:56:34,450 --> 00:56:32,359
be friendly try to be respectful just

1542
00:56:36,729 --> 00:56:34,460
and then ask some probing questions like

1543
00:56:37,839 --> 00:56:36,739
boom how do you know that's true what

1544
00:56:39,489 --> 00:56:37,849
you know how did you arrive at that

1545
00:56:42,579 --> 00:56:39,499
belief and what would it take to change

1546
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:42,589
your mind and see if it would see what

1547
00:56:45,489 --> 00:56:44,450
they come up with and yeah I'm a the

1548
00:56:47,079 --> 00:56:45,499
important thing really is just keeping

1549
00:56:49,509 --> 00:56:47,089
them talking and giving them your

1550
00:56:52,839 --> 00:56:49,519
information I mean the other thing on

1551
00:56:55,710 --> 00:56:52,849
the 9/11 truther thing that I added to

1552
00:56:58,779 --> 00:56:55,720
the course I was I was thinking about

1553
00:57:01,029 --> 00:56:58,789
Dan Danny Kahneman's research on the

1554
00:57:04,650 --> 00:57:01,039
conjunction fallacy this is the famous

1555
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:04,660
susan experiment you know susan was a a

1556
00:57:09,579 --> 00:57:07,730
social activist and I forget what the

1557
00:57:11,410 --> 00:57:09,589
characteristics are of her when she was

1558
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:11,420
in college there's a whole list of these

1559
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:13,130
things and then you know what's more

1560
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:14,720
likely that Susan was a bank teller or

1561
00:57:18,999 --> 00:57:16,400
that Susan is a bank teller and a

1562
00:57:20,890 --> 00:57:19,009
feminist activist and everybody thinks

1563
00:57:22,660 --> 00:57:20,900
well she had to be a feminist activist

1564
00:57:25,479 --> 00:57:22,670
and a bank teller because look at her

1565
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:25,489
history but the Kahneman's point was

1566
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:28,910
that the conjunction fallacy is that the

1567
00:57:33,609 --> 00:57:31,910
probability of two independent factors

1568
00:57:37,089 --> 00:57:33,619
happening at the same time is always

1569
00:57:40,299 --> 00:57:37,099
going to be lower than any either one of

1570
00:57:41,499 --> 00:57:40,309
the independent factors happening so I I

1571
00:57:43,070 --> 00:57:41,509
got to thinking about that it's like

1572
00:57:45,140 --> 00:57:43,080
that applies to the 9/11

1573
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:45,150
we don't have to deal with any of this

1574
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:46,410
stuff of their thermite and

1575
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:49,050
super-thermite and other little

1576
00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:53,250
arguments they're claiming that you know

1577
00:57:58,490 --> 00:57:56,400
the planes hit the buildings and this

1578
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:58,500
other independent thing happened that

1579
00:58:02,060 --> 00:58:00,480
explosive devices were planted in the

1580
00:58:04,070 --> 00:58:02,070
buildings those are two separate

1581
00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:04,080
independent events the probabilities of

1582
00:58:08,030 --> 00:58:06,510
both of those happening are lower than

1583
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:08,040
the probability of either one of them

1584
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:10,410
happening we know the planes hit the

1585
00:58:14,660 --> 00:58:11,970
building because we've seen the videos

1586
00:58:17,090 --> 00:58:14,670
and so on and tons of eyewitnesses and

1587
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:17,100
so the probabilities that that happen

1588
00:58:21,350 --> 00:58:19,410
which we know happen and the explosive

1589
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:21,360
devices were planted in the buildings

1590
00:58:24,890 --> 00:58:23,130
and then that that's fraught with

1591
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:24,900
problems these are two the most secure

1592
00:58:29,930 --> 00:58:27,930
buildings in all of America and under

1593
00:58:31,370 --> 00:58:29,940
the pretenses of fixing the elevators

1594
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:31,380
they snuck in broke through the drywall

1595
00:58:36,380 --> 00:58:34,290
planted and so on and they knew exactly

1596
00:58:39,170 --> 00:58:36,390
which floors the planes were gonna hit

1597
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:39,180
on so they planted the explosive devices

1598
00:58:43,490 --> 00:58:41,280
there on those particularly now and it

1599
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:43,500
goes so the probabilities of all that

1600
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:45,570
happening are so low to me

1601
00:58:49,550 --> 00:58:47,730
I don't even you wouldn't even need to

1602
00:58:51,290 --> 00:58:49,560
bother with all the other arguments the

1603
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:51,300
things that's how it is that it's hard

1604
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:53,310
to talk about prognosis because they

1605
00:58:57,050 --> 00:58:55,710
don't really make sense on an individual

1606
00:58:58,640 --> 00:58:57,060
case like this because things either

1607
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:58,650
happened or they didn't and you know

1608
00:59:03,170 --> 00:59:00,480
it's how do you talk about yeah I wasn't

1609
00:59:04,370 --> 00:59:03,180
entirely convinced by i'ma say by your

1610
00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:04,380
argument for the conjunction fallacy

1611
00:59:09,110 --> 00:59:07,140
okay I think I think the you know this

1612
00:59:10,790 --> 00:59:09,120
objections raised about the conjunction

1613
00:59:13,340 --> 00:59:10,800
fallacy like people take the question as

1614
00:59:15,380 --> 00:59:13,350
meaning was she a bank teller and not a

1615
00:59:18,260 --> 00:59:15,390
feminist or was she a bank teller and a

1616
00:59:19,010 --> 00:59:18,270
feminist I think a lot of people I read

1617
00:59:20,780 --> 00:59:19,020
it that way

1618
00:59:22,940 --> 00:59:20,790
and they think of these things as being

1619
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:22,950
being separate and that they don't

1620
00:59:27,350 --> 00:59:25,530
necessarily think that you're you're

1621
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,360
asking you when you're asking about say

1622
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:29,760
was it planes and know was it planes or

1623
00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:32,010
was it planes plus explosions they're

1624
00:59:35,390 --> 00:59:33,540
thinking you're asking was it planes

1625
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:35,400
plus no explosions

1626
00:59:39,980 --> 00:59:37,530
so that really it boils down to just the

1627
00:59:41,930 --> 00:59:39,990
left side of that argument the right way

1628
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:41,940
it would be like yes the last but but

1629
00:59:45,860 --> 00:59:43,980
but isn't that what 9/11 truthers

1630
00:59:47,930 --> 00:59:45,870
believe most of them I mean you do you

1631
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:47,940
do talk about a demarcation line there

1632
00:59:52,580 --> 00:59:50,850
the no planers are skeptical of the ones

1633
00:59:54,770 --> 00:59:52,590
that accept that the planes did hit the

1634
00:59:56,570 --> 00:59:54,780
buildings but just the ones that accept

1635
00:59:59,090 --> 00:59:56,580
that the planes hit the buildings

1636
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:59,100
and that explosive devices were planted

1637
01:00:01,910 --> 01:00:00,660
right isn't that what they believe yeah

1638
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:01,920
but I think I think that's very much the

1639
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:04,710
mainstream for 911 the no cleaners

1640
01:00:09,500 --> 01:00:07,470
are a very very small fringe minority of

1641
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:09,510
crazy people essentially who think that

1642
01:00:12,890 --> 01:00:11,250
no planes hit the World Trade Center and

1643
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:12,900
it was all Holograms or something so

1644
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:14,250
when you're talking to a 9/11 truther

1645
01:00:17,660 --> 01:00:16,050
they're all saying yeah planes hit the

1646
01:00:20,330 --> 01:00:17,670
building some of them will say that

1647
01:00:22,550 --> 01:00:20,340
there were remote control planes but

1648
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:22,560
then they're saying like in addition

1649
01:00:28,340 --> 01:00:26,370
there was a so from their perspective I

1650
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:28,350
don't think the probability of the plane

1651
01:00:32,750 --> 01:00:30,240
hitting on not is really really a factor

1652
01:00:35,390 --> 01:00:32,760
there that probability is like you got

1653
01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:35,400
to focus on is how how plausible is it

1654
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:37,200
that you would have sneaked explosives

1655
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:39,090
into the buildings which as you know is

1656
01:00:43,790 --> 01:00:41,040
very implausible especially as you've

1657
01:00:46,250 --> 01:00:43,800
pointed out on the same floor that the

1658
01:00:50,270 --> 01:00:46,260
planes hitting was burning for nearly an

1659
01:00:52,310 --> 01:00:50,280
hour before it collapsed yeah so yeah I

1660
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:52,320
mean there's the again another one of

1661
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:54,720
the points I enjoyed about your book was

1662
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:56,610
that line of demarcation is such an

1663
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,040
important subject I did this one's I did

1664
01:01:02,570 --> 01:01:01,200
I had a three-way debate with a young

1665
01:01:04,070 --> 01:01:02,580
earth creationist and an older earth

1666
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:04,080
creationist and I represented the

1667
01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:07,050
evolutionary position now I just got the

1668
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:09,300
two of them going at each other you know

1669
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:10,530
it started debunking each other's

1670
01:01:14,780 --> 01:01:13,410
arguments so I didn't have to do it you

1671
01:01:16,730 --> 01:01:14,790
know because we all have that sort of

1672
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:16,740
line of demarcation where we where we

1673
01:01:23,330 --> 01:01:19,890
draw down there but but but back to the

1674
01:01:25,250 --> 01:01:23,340
conjunction fallacy yeah it does seem to

1675
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:25,260
me that just just a simple argument

1676
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:27,110
leaving out the details that

1677
01:01:30,890 --> 01:01:29,220
probabilities of the planes hitting the

1678
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:30,900
buildings and the explosive devices

1679
01:01:34,370 --> 01:01:32,610
leaving aside however they would have

1680
01:01:35,810 --> 01:01:34,380
gotten them in there isn't that a lower

1681
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:35,820
probability than either one of them

1682
01:01:39,050 --> 01:01:37,710
happening independently sure but we know

1683
01:01:40,550 --> 01:01:39,060
that the planes hit the buildings and

1684
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:40,560
all the 9/11 truthers know the planes

1685
01:01:45,710 --> 01:01:43,710
hit the building so it's not really yeah

1686
01:01:48,290 --> 01:01:45,720
kind of that's not that's that's a 1 on

1687
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:48,300
the probability scale so ok when you

1688
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:51,170
multiply them out it comes out the same

1689
01:01:55,250 --> 01:01:53,850
but you know it's it's an interesting

1690
01:01:57,980 --> 01:01:55,260
thing to think about the conjunction

1691
01:02:01,190 --> 01:01:57,990
power said I have problems with the way

1692
01:02:03,230 --> 01:02:01,200
it's phrased like that yeah okay I guess

1693
01:02:04,790 --> 01:02:03,240
that I hadn't seen they could critiques

1694
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:04,800
of the suzhen conjunction fallacy that

1695
01:02:08,780 --> 01:02:06,810
that that is interesting although I

1696
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:08,790
guess it would apply to any conspiracy

1697
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:10,530
theory because one of my

1698
01:02:15,650 --> 01:02:13,530
sort of debunking points again that you

1699
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:15,660
make - is that the more complex the

1700
01:02:20,090 --> 01:02:18,000
system has to be the more people that

1701
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:20,100
are going to have to be involved to pull

1702
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,200
it off and the more things that have to

1703
01:02:26,270 --> 01:02:24,240
happen in just the right sequence the

1704
01:02:28,970 --> 01:02:26,280
lower the probability is the devil

1705
01:02:31,340 --> 01:02:28,980
conspiracy yeah definitely is that I'm

1706
01:02:33,590 --> 01:02:31,350
very difficult to pull off yeah I think

1707
01:02:36,410 --> 01:02:33,600
I have a better way of talking about it

1708
01:02:38,630 --> 01:02:36,420
than just like how likely is this thing

1709
01:02:41,300 --> 01:02:38,640
is a thing you do very well in the book

1710
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:41,310
is giving like historical contexts

1711
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:43,730
for real conspiracies and what actually

1712
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:47,520
it took to pull these various things off

1713
01:02:52,910 --> 01:02:50,250
and how kind of narrowly focused they

1714
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:52,920
were but you talk about I think the idea

1715
01:02:57,170 --> 01:02:55,650
around Scotch iran-contra scandal yeah

1716
01:02:59,150 --> 01:02:57,180
I'm just a relatively small number of

1717
01:03:00,560 --> 01:02:59,160
people and he did actually get it did

1718
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:00,570
actually come out because it's very very

1719
01:03:05,930 --> 01:03:02,640
hard to keep things secret and if that

1720
01:03:08,090 --> 01:03:05,940
came out then much bigger things would

1721
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:08,100
also come out yeah something like on the

1722
01:03:14,810 --> 01:03:13,170
scale of 9/11 yeah exactly i mean again

1723
01:03:16,810 --> 01:03:14,820
clinton couldn't even get a in

1724
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:16,820
the White House is that as people joke

1725
01:03:21,140 --> 01:03:19,650
you know Nixon couldn't even get you

1726
01:03:22,910 --> 01:03:21,150
know his plumbers to break into the

1727
01:03:24,650 --> 01:03:22,920
Democratic headquarters successfully I

1728
01:03:27,050 --> 01:03:24,660
mean these are you know see you know

1729
01:03:29,780 --> 01:03:27,060
these are FBI g-men who would supposedly

1730
01:03:31,460 --> 01:03:29,790
professionals at this and you know it

1731
01:03:34,010 --> 01:03:31,470
just shows you how hard it is to really

1732
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:34,020
pull off a real conspiracy I mean again

1733
01:03:37,850 --> 01:03:35,970
Volkswagen got caught cheating the

1734
01:03:40,310 --> 01:03:37,860
emissions scandal and you know these

1735
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:40,320
these insider trader stuff every week

1736
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:42,210
somebody gets busted for it I mean those

1737
01:03:46,580 --> 01:03:44,010
are all kinds of conspiracies that are

1738
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:46,590
very detailed and narrowly focused and

1739
01:03:50,930 --> 01:03:48,450
still hard to pull off

1740
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:50,940
most people get busted yeah you know

1741
01:03:58,160 --> 01:03:53,570
they I've been reading Edward Snowden's

1742
01:04:00,190 --> 01:03:58,170
memoirs and autobiographies and and gosh

1743
01:04:02,330 --> 01:04:00,200
it's just you know it is kind of

1744
01:04:04,190 --> 01:04:02,340
illuminating about the kinds of stuff

1745
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:04,200
governments are willing to do this was

1746
01:04:08,270 --> 01:04:06,090
under the not just the Bush

1747
01:04:11,180 --> 01:04:08,280
administration but under Obama you know

1748
01:04:13,550 --> 01:04:11,190
mister transparency and you know he

1749
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:13,560
Snowden talks about this keystroke I

1750
01:04:18,350 --> 01:04:15,210
forget what it's called key something

1751
01:04:20,690 --> 01:04:18,360
Keystone where you can actually take

1752
01:04:21,770 --> 01:04:20,700
over somebody's personal computer and

1753
01:04:24,050 --> 01:04:21,780
watch what they're watching on their

1754
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:24,060
screen porn or their a bit of a video

1755
01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:24,810
conference with

1756
01:04:28,970 --> 01:04:27,510
child or whatever is this incredibly and

1757
01:04:30,980 --> 01:04:28,980
he describes that I'm sitting here

1758
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:30,990
watching this look at this father with

1759
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:34,370
his little son in his lap it's like what

1760
01:04:39,020 --> 01:04:37,440
yeah this is quite amazing and yeah

1761
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:39,030
something you talk about a lot as well

1762
01:04:44,930 --> 01:04:41,850
like there's one thing it was an old

1763
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:44,940
program that was instituted after World

1764
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:47,760
War two like in 1945 was Project

1765
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:50,640
Shamrock yeah that was that was the

1766
01:04:54,050 --> 01:04:52,530
project that they they recorded all of

1767
01:04:57,470 --> 01:04:54,060
the telegrams coming into the United

1768
01:04:59,960 --> 01:04:57,480
States from 1945 until in 1970s all of

1769
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:59,970
the church commissioned church committee

1770
01:05:03,650 --> 01:05:01,440
which is quite a quite incredible way

1771
01:05:05,630 --> 01:05:03,660
yeah I never never see heard of project

1772
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:05,640
shamrock better it just seems like you

1773
01:05:09,860 --> 01:05:07,680
know the same type of thing going on

1774
01:05:11,420 --> 01:05:09,870
yeah and that church committee thing was

1775
01:05:12,620 --> 01:05:11,430
really important which is why it's good

1776
01:05:14,660 --> 01:05:12,630
that we have those kinds of things I

1777
01:05:16,340 --> 01:05:14,670
think we needed another one now about

1778
01:05:17,660 --> 01:05:16,350
the Russian meddling and Ukraine or

1779
01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:17,670
whatever else is going on that we don't

1780
01:05:21,410 --> 01:05:19,680
quite know about because from the Church

1781
01:05:24,290 --> 01:05:21,420
Committee we also found more stuff about

1782
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:24,300
the JFK assassination including that you

1783
01:05:28,730 --> 01:05:26,490
know it was Kennedy that set up there

1784
01:05:30,890 --> 01:05:28,740
were secret recording devices in the

1785
01:05:33,020 --> 01:05:30,900
Oval Office you know not Nixon he you

1786
01:05:35,300 --> 01:05:33,030
know not not Johnson Kennedy before them

1787
01:05:38,300 --> 01:05:35,310
wait wait a Democrat he's on our side

1788
01:05:40,370 --> 01:05:38,310
liberals say yeah well you know so this

1789
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:40,380
stuff goes on and MKULTRA came out

1790
01:05:44,180 --> 01:05:41,910
because of that you know we were doing

1791
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:44,190
what mind-control and all that

1792
01:05:47,030 --> 01:05:45,690
Manchurian Candidate stuff which

1793
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:47,040
everybody assumed well that's just a

1794
01:05:50,990 --> 01:05:49,290
movie you know trying to figure out how

1795
01:05:53,300 --> 01:05:51,000
to brainwash people no actually it was a

1796
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:53,310
real program yeah same thing with

1797
01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:54,930
Project Star Gate I didn't talk about

1798
01:06:01,660 --> 01:05:57,180
that in the in the course but you know

1799
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:01,670
this was the CIA's attempt to master

1800
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:05,970
this remote viewing where you have these

1801
01:06:09,890 --> 01:06:08,160
remote viewers these psychics in a room

1802
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:09,900
and Washington DC somewhere and and

1803
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:11,690
they're trying to determine

1804
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:14,010
telepathically where the missile silos

1805
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:16,890
are located in Russia or ever you know

1806
01:06:20,990 --> 01:06:18,720
where Osama bin Laden is hiding you know

1807
01:06:23,540 --> 01:06:21,000
that was that came later but you know

1808
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:23,550
and so these guys are they claim they

1809
01:06:28,060 --> 01:06:25,530
got hits it's like yeah I'm sure you've

1810
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:28,070
got some hits but is it statistically

1811
01:06:32,420 --> 01:06:30,000
significant number of hits are they

1812
01:06:33,740 --> 01:06:32,430
important hits and you know this is kind

1813
01:06:35,660 --> 01:06:33,750
of how psychic subarray but but the

1814
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:35,670
point was it's like wait we spent twenty

1815
01:06:40,250 --> 01:06:38,280
million dollars so testing room

1816
01:06:42,380 --> 01:06:40,260
viewing that that's just stuff

1817
01:06:44,210 --> 01:06:42,390
we these get fixed debunk decades ago I

1818
01:06:46,190 --> 01:06:44,220
mean right at the amazing Randi debunked

1819
01:06:48,170 --> 01:06:46,200
to stuff back in the 80s we were

1820
01:06:50,150 --> 01:06:48,180
spending money on this the government

1821
01:06:52,190 --> 01:06:50,160
was that yeah so again we have to

1822
01:06:54,620 --> 01:06:52,200
acknowledge to the Alex Jones of the

1823
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:54,630
world that some of this stuff is real it

1824
01:06:59,030 --> 01:06:56,850
does go on there are you know we should

1825
01:07:00,880 --> 01:06:59,040
not just trust government for sure and

1826
01:07:02,810 --> 01:07:00,890
and it isn't just the Republican

1827
01:07:04,670 --> 01:07:02,820
administrations we shouldn't trust you

1828
01:07:06,170 --> 01:07:04,680
know the Democrats they they've done

1829
01:07:08,810 --> 01:07:06,180
just as many nefarious things

1830
01:07:11,630 --> 01:07:08,820
yeah well certainly over yeah at the

1831
01:07:13,070 --> 01:07:11,640
last hundred years or so like this stuff

1832
01:07:15,650 --> 01:07:13,080
that was going on was obviously under

1833
01:07:17,780 --> 01:07:15,660
yeah both both administration's Democrat

1834
01:07:20,050 --> 01:07:17,790
and Republicans all the interventions in

1835
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:20,060
foreign countries and things like that

1836
01:07:25,900 --> 01:07:22,770
lecture eleven you talk about the

1837
01:07:28,310 --> 01:07:25,910
deadliest conspiracy in history which

1838
01:07:32,810 --> 01:07:28,320
was essentially the events leading up to

1839
01:07:35,630 --> 01:07:32,820
World War one and why did you devote a

1840
01:07:37,780 --> 01:07:35,640
whole chapter to that well I knew a fair

1841
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:37,790
man about that I just read a book on

1842
01:07:42,350 --> 01:07:40,170
that the whole origins of the First

1843
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:42,360
World War and the causes and there was a

1844
01:07:48,070 --> 01:07:44,490
whole section on that and then there was

1845
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:48,080
a there was a film about prince chef

1846
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:51,330
gabriele print ship and the assessment

1847
01:07:57,050 --> 01:07:54,690
whether or not he was a pot like up what

1848
01:08:01,130 --> 01:07:57,060
would it Oswald call himself I'm a poxy

1849
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:01,140
Patsy yeah where he was where every old

1850
01:08:05,030 --> 01:08:02,490
print shop was described as something

1851
01:08:06,500 --> 01:08:05,040
like a patsy somebody else was pulling

1852
01:08:08,690 --> 01:08:06,510
those strings and maybe the strings are

1853
01:08:11,570 --> 01:08:08,700
being pulled by serbia itself the

1854
01:08:13,100 --> 01:08:11,580
government as a false flag operation you

1855
01:08:14,690 --> 01:08:13,110
know at for their own nefarious things i

1856
01:08:16,250 --> 01:08:14,700
thought whoa this is so much like the

1857
01:08:16,670 --> 01:08:16,260
JFK thing i got to look into this some

1858
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:16,680
more

1859
01:08:21,380 --> 01:08:19,410
and I did and I'm not you know I'm not

1860
01:08:23,930 --> 01:08:21,390
super convinced I know the correct

1861
01:08:27,170 --> 01:08:23,940
answer I think it was you know this sort

1862
01:08:29,599 --> 01:08:27,180
of Serbian nationalist black hand

1863
01:08:31,070 --> 01:08:29,609
conspiracy with some other people behind

1864
01:08:33,170 --> 01:08:31,080
the scenes but probably not government

1865
01:08:35,599 --> 01:08:33,180
agents probably these independent groups

1866
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:35,609
I think not a hundred percent sure on

1867
01:08:40,460 --> 01:08:37,650
that and I was amazed to see that there

1868
01:08:41,870 --> 01:08:40,470
is some debate about that but that you

1869
01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:41,880
know whatever the conspiracy whether

1870
01:08:46,190 --> 01:08:44,310
it's this black hand Serbian nationalist

1871
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:46,200
group or the government itself you know

1872
01:08:50,030 --> 01:08:48,210
this led to this cascade of consequences

1873
01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:50,040
that triggered the first world war and

1874
01:08:54,890 --> 01:08:51,750
you know tens of millions of

1875
01:08:57,499 --> 01:08:54,900
people dead that's a conspiracy yeah and

1876
01:08:59,630 --> 01:08:57,509
obviously it was yeah you could describe

1877
01:09:02,120 --> 01:08:59,640
it as being a conspiracy theory on the

1878
01:09:03,890 --> 01:09:02,130
part of the austrian-hungarian empire in

1879
01:09:07,309 --> 01:09:03,900
that they used the particular

1880
01:09:12,289 --> 01:09:07,319
interpretation of what happened to to

1881
01:09:14,150 --> 01:09:12,299
attack was it Serbia yeah yeah oh yeah

1882
01:09:15,980 --> 01:09:14,160
that that's that's where I made that I

1883
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:15,990
also made that link between made it

1884
01:09:20,059 --> 01:09:17,730
happen on purpose my home and let it

1885
01:09:24,289 --> 01:09:20,069
happen on purpose lie huh from the 9/11

1886
01:09:26,269 --> 01:09:24,299
truth theorists that then I called it

1887
01:09:27,170 --> 01:09:26,279
capitalized on what happened on purpose

1888
01:09:29,210 --> 01:09:27,180
cow Hoth

1889
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:29,220
which is in a way kind of what Roosevelt

1890
01:09:34,970 --> 01:09:31,410
did I mean Roosevelt wanted to get the

1891
01:09:37,340 --> 01:09:34,980
United States into the European war but

1892
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:37,350
he needed a pretext for that and that

1893
01:09:40,610 --> 01:09:39,210
was Pearl Harbor so you know of course

1894
01:09:43,220 --> 01:09:40,620
tea you know he let it happen on purpose

1895
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:43,230
or he made it happen on purpose no it

1896
01:09:47,690 --> 01:09:46,410
just happened but he then did what

1897
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:47,700
governments often do they take advantage

1898
01:09:52,099 --> 01:09:50,130
of something that just happens and then

1899
01:09:54,140 --> 01:09:52,109
utilize it for their own political gain

1900
01:09:55,820 --> 01:09:54,150
that that's what that's a true

1901
01:09:57,590 --> 01:09:55,830
conspiracy that's a little more nuanced

1902
01:10:00,200 --> 01:09:57,600
but it is a kind of a conspiracy

1903
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:00,210
generally yeah yeah and that's again

1904
01:10:04,370 --> 01:10:01,890
like the type of perspective I think

1905
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:04,380
that you want to give people like yeah

1906
01:10:10,670 --> 01:10:06,570
tell people that people exploit things

1907
01:10:13,550 --> 01:10:10,680
like the Gulf of Tonkin attacks are not

1908
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:13,560
acts they weren't exactly a false flag

1909
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:15,510
it was kind of a mistaken report of an

1910
01:10:22,910 --> 01:10:20,130
attack but McNamara left upon it and you

1911
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:22,920
know exploited it you know capital

1912
01:10:26,660 --> 01:10:24,480
eyesight and like you I'm glad you came

1913
01:10:32,260 --> 01:10:26,670
up with KY hop

1914
01:10:36,770 --> 01:10:34,880
because I used to call it so glad it

1915
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:36,780
happened but then I couldn't I couldn't

1916
01:10:44,780 --> 01:10:38,850
figure out what how to end it so it was

1917
01:10:49,790 --> 01:10:44,790
like hot my hop and Gi a so I use a cow

1918
01:10:52,130 --> 01:10:49,800
hop now which is a more what also wrote

1919
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:52,140
about you know operate the operation

1920
01:10:56,570 --> 01:10:53,730
Northwoods joe rogan

1921
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:56,580
it made a big Alex Jones made a big deal

1922
01:11:00,260 --> 01:10:57,840
about that on joe rogan show I'm like

1923
01:11:01,250 --> 01:11:00,270
wait operation Northwoods II I gotta

1924
01:11:02,660 --> 01:11:01,260
look into that a little bit more I

1925
01:11:03,950 --> 01:11:02,670
forget what the details of that that

1926
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:03,960
came out during the church

1927
01:11:08,100 --> 01:11:05,650
well actually came out an issue

1928
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:08,110
Johnson had heard about it after Kennedy

1929
01:11:11,820 --> 01:11:10,000
was assassinated and he covered it up

1930
01:11:14,220 --> 01:11:11,830
because he thought this could be really

1931
01:11:16,530 --> 01:11:14,230
bad for Cold War tensions if American

1932
01:11:18,750 --> 01:11:16,540
public finds that if the Russians find

1933
01:11:20,250 --> 01:11:18,760
out what we can administer a ssin was

1934
01:11:23,310 --> 01:11:20,260
planning on doing to assassinate Castro

1935
01:11:26,940 --> 01:11:23,320
and and also create false like

1936
01:11:29,100 --> 01:11:26,950
operations like we'll have a one of our

1937
01:11:31,710 --> 01:11:29,110
Jets doctored up to look like a Russian

1938
01:11:35,700 --> 01:11:31,720
MIG and then it'll you know Buzz fly

1939
01:11:38,010 --> 01:11:35,710
some American commercial planes and that

1940
01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:38,020
will say the Russians did that and then

1941
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:39,520
we'll invade Cuba you know and they had

1942
01:11:42,510 --> 01:11:41,050
like a dozen different things like now

1943
01:11:44,700 --> 01:11:42,520
to his credit Kennedy said we're not

1944
01:11:46,980 --> 01:11:44,710
doing those things that's crazy but the

1945
01:11:48,690 --> 01:11:46,990
fact that that his administration all

1946
01:11:50,460 --> 01:11:48,700
the way up to McNamara going yeah this

1947
01:11:53,190 --> 01:11:50,470
this seems like a good idea let's do

1948
01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:53,200
that and we'll assassinate Castro while

1949
01:11:56,700 --> 01:11:54,910
we're at it you know and it wasn't until

1950
01:11:59,460 --> 01:11:56,710
Reagan was president that Reagan passed

1951
01:12:01,320 --> 01:11:59,470
that law we will not that's against a

1952
01:12:03,180 --> 01:12:01,330
lot of assassinate foreign leaders yeah

1953
01:12:04,830 --> 01:12:03,190
you know cuz I'm sure he was a little

1954
01:12:06,540 --> 01:12:04,840
worried himself because you know we we

1955
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:06,550
were we had been doing this in South

1956
01:12:11,250 --> 01:12:10,000
America backing South American dictators

1957
01:12:13,380 --> 01:12:11,260
you know he's a son of a but he's

1958
01:12:16,350 --> 01:12:13,390
our son of a right you know

1959
01:12:18,210 --> 01:12:16,360
Hitchens wrote about this about you know

1960
01:12:20,340 --> 01:12:18,220
this book on Henry Kissinger as a war

1961
01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:20,350
criminal I remember reading this going

1962
01:12:24,660 --> 01:12:22,450
kind of never thought about Kissinger in

1963
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:24,670
that regard but yeah I can kind of see

1964
01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:26,170
the argument not that try go that far

1965
01:12:30,270 --> 01:12:28,510
but all the conniving things we were

1966
01:12:32,250 --> 01:12:30,280
doing secretly

1967
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:32,260
you know Congress did not know about it

1968
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:33,970
so the public doesn't know about it so

1969
01:12:38,010 --> 01:12:36,610
this is a kind of conspiracy to topple

1970
01:12:40,410 --> 01:12:38,020
certain dictators that were more

1971
01:12:42,270 --> 01:12:40,420
communist and back dictators that were

1972
01:12:45,150 --> 01:12:42,280
either leaning toward democracy or more

1973
01:12:46,710 --> 01:12:45,160
fascist in South American countries to

1974
01:12:49,230 --> 01:12:46,720
the point where we're you know sending

1975
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:49,240
CIA operatives were provided them with

1976
01:12:55,110 --> 01:12:53,050
weapons and people are dying and these

1977
01:12:56,970 --> 01:12:55,120
some of these false flag operations to

1978
01:12:58,590 --> 01:12:56,980
make it look like the Communists did

1979
01:13:00,090 --> 01:12:58,600
this to the fascists therefore the

1980
01:13:02,340 --> 01:13:00,100
Democrats should come in you know all

1981
01:13:04,770 --> 01:13:02,350
this stuff this is all you know came out

1982
01:13:06,420 --> 01:13:04,780
in the 90s about what we were doing in

1983
01:13:08,220 --> 01:13:06,430
the 60s and 70s in South American

1984
01:13:09,990 --> 01:13:08,230
countries it's like holy crap that's

1985
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:10,000
pretty bad and that's a real conspiracy

1986
01:13:15,150 --> 01:13:12,730
mm-hmm yeah I think yeah I'm like oh

1987
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:15,160
saying like it's it's really important

1988
01:13:18,870 --> 01:13:17,440
tell people the real conspiracy to

1989
01:13:19,149 --> 01:13:18,880
happen that's why I started the first

1990
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:19,159
word

1991
01:13:22,839 --> 01:13:20,449
my book where that comes first there's a

1992
01:13:24,879 --> 01:13:22,849
rail of course and you start out you

1993
01:13:28,929 --> 01:13:24,889
know your series like listing all these

1994
01:13:30,729 --> 01:13:28,939
conspiracies and you you list your list

1995
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:30,739
more in the in the last lecture like

1996
01:13:34,419 --> 01:13:32,570
you're talking about say the real

1997
01:13:36,879 --> 01:13:34,429
x-files conspiracy theories and myth and

1998
01:13:39,159 --> 01:13:36,889
reality and you're talking about cover

1999
01:13:41,259 --> 01:13:39,169
the real underpinnings like in this case

2000
01:13:46,419 --> 01:13:41,269
it's interesting you it's gonna switch

2001
01:13:48,699 --> 01:13:46,429
in a way to go to UFOs yeah because I

2002
01:13:50,290 --> 01:13:48,709
almost feel like universe exists the

2003
01:13:53,169 --> 01:13:50,300
part wait I know when you were going

2004
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:53,179
through my my scheme of classifications

2005
01:13:58,089 --> 01:13:56,570
of conspiracy extremeness and we get to

2006
01:13:59,890 --> 01:13:58,099
UFOs and I think I put it as an eight or

2007
01:14:01,029 --> 01:13:59,900
something like that seven or eight yeah

2008
01:14:02,830 --> 01:14:01,039
I could tell you weren't entirely

2009
01:14:05,859 --> 01:14:02,840
convinced that it deserved to be quite

2010
01:14:07,810 --> 01:14:05,869
so high on the on the thing because it's

2011
01:14:10,060 --> 01:14:07,820
it's you know in some ways it seems like

2012
01:14:14,799 --> 01:14:10,070
a almost like a harmless almost hobby

2013
01:14:17,109 --> 01:14:14,809
rather than a conspiracy theory yeah I

2014
01:14:19,149 --> 01:14:17,119
think yes the way I think about it is

2015
01:14:20,649 --> 01:14:19,159
this you know and again in terms of your

2016
01:14:23,020 --> 01:14:20,659
your strategies for dealing with these

2017
01:14:25,060 --> 01:14:23,030
people is to acknowledge that very

2018
01:14:27,429 --> 01:14:25,070
probably extraterrestrial intelligences

2019
01:14:28,779 --> 01:14:27,439
exist somewhere in the cosmos and you

2020
01:14:31,060 --> 01:14:28,789
can go through all the steady arguments

2021
01:14:33,489 --> 01:14:31,070
and that's it that's reasonable now have

2022
01:14:34,509 --> 01:14:33,499
they come here I separate those two

2023
01:14:36,790 --> 01:14:34,519
separate questions are they out there

2024
01:14:38,409 --> 01:14:36,800
have they come here now let's look at

2025
01:14:40,229 --> 01:14:38,419
the evidence for have they come here and

2026
01:14:42,129 --> 01:14:40,239
you know this goes back to Sagan kind of

2027
01:14:43,989 --> 01:14:42,139
deconstructing the arguments back in the

2028
01:14:45,969 --> 01:14:43,999
sixties and seventies and you know

2029
01:14:47,739 --> 01:14:45,979
always it's you know the evidence is

2030
01:14:49,569 --> 01:14:47,749
thin it's always questionable it's not

2031
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:49,579
clear you know we don't have a type

2032
01:14:53,049 --> 01:14:51,409
specimen there's no physical body we can

2033
01:14:54,689 --> 01:14:53,059
all look at there's no spacecraft all we

2034
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:54,699
have are these sort of blacked-out

2035
01:14:59,409 --> 01:14:57,650
paragraphs in in secret document

2036
01:15:01,419 --> 01:14:59,419
government talk classified documents and

2037
01:15:02,979 --> 01:15:01,429
we have blurry photographs and grainy

2038
01:15:06,069 --> 01:15:02,989
videos it's always kind of in that

2039
01:15:07,810 --> 01:15:06,079
that's kind of questionable area if by

2040
01:15:10,779 --> 01:15:07,820
UFO you mean the you eat means

2041
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:10,789
extraterrestrial now you know it to me

2042
01:15:14,350 --> 01:15:13,010
if you mean by you experimental aircraft

2043
01:15:16,390 --> 01:15:14,360
that the government is secretly working

2044
01:15:18,250 --> 01:15:16,400
on yeah I'm sure that's true

2045
01:15:19,810 --> 01:15:18,260
or maybe the Russians have some

2046
01:15:21,969 --> 01:15:19,820
experimental aircraft we don't know

2047
01:15:23,919 --> 01:15:21,979
about that's entirely possible so there

2048
01:15:26,500 --> 01:15:23,929
I would agree with you you know it

2049
01:15:28,870 --> 01:15:26,510
should have fairly high standing yeah

2050
01:15:31,569 --> 01:15:28,880
yeah so it's a little perspective thing

2051
01:15:33,009 --> 01:15:31,579
that's kinda surprising to me was you

2052
01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:33,019
took about Roswell and how

2053
01:15:36,310 --> 01:15:34,130
you know the Roswell was a brief

2054
01:15:38,140 --> 01:15:36,320
flare-up of things for them for 20 years

2055
01:15:39,779 --> 01:15:38,150
Roswell didn't even really make the

2056
01:15:42,729 --> 01:15:39,789
grade in terms of the most interesting

2057
01:15:44,140 --> 01:15:42,739
you know UFO sightings and until someone

2058
01:15:46,629 --> 01:15:44,150
wrote a book about it and then he bumped

2059
01:15:48,609 --> 01:15:46,639
back up again right and then

2060
01:15:51,669 --> 01:15:48,619
eyewitnesses suddenly remembered things

2061
01:15:54,790 --> 01:15:51,679
I saw and so on by the way you had Nick

2062
01:15:57,970 --> 01:15:54,800
Pope on your yes which I really enjoyed

2063
01:16:00,370 --> 01:15:57,980
I've not met him personally I've seen

2064
01:16:02,350 --> 01:16:00,380
him on every one of those ancient alien

2065
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:02,360
right yeah so he's like a regular I

2066
01:16:04,899 --> 01:16:03,170
don't know if he's one of the producers

2067
01:16:06,910 --> 01:16:04,909
or what I don't know what but he's on

2068
01:16:09,279 --> 01:16:06,920
every one of them you would think he's

2069
01:16:11,470 --> 01:16:09,289
totally down the rabbit hole with those

2070
01:16:13,209 --> 01:16:11,480
guys and on your podcast he's going I

2071
01:16:15,250 --> 01:16:13,219
have no idea if aliens have come here I

2072
01:16:17,620 --> 01:16:15,260
can't say we cannot say that the

2073
01:16:19,060 --> 01:16:17,630
evidence is not good enough to make that

2074
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:19,070
conclusion I'm like dude you've never

2075
01:16:24,549 --> 01:16:21,530
said that and hundreds of hours on

2076
01:16:25,959 --> 01:16:24,559
television you know and he but but then

2077
01:16:28,450 --> 01:16:25,969
I've watched a few more of these

2078
01:16:32,379 --> 01:16:28,460
episodes they're streaming now on Hulu I

2079
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:32,389
think and and he couches the language so

2080
01:16:37,839 --> 01:16:35,449
carefully you know like is it possible

2081
01:16:39,250 --> 01:16:37,849
that and it could be and some people are

2082
01:16:41,290 --> 01:16:39,260
saying that you know it's almost

2083
01:16:42,970 --> 01:16:41,300
trumpian like you know Trump says you

2084
01:16:46,330 --> 01:16:42,980
know people are saying what people Oh a

2085
01:16:48,549 --> 01:16:46,340
lot of people well wait a minute you

2086
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:48,559
know and it's hard to pin down that and

2087
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:50,449
I thought you pin him down perfectly he

2088
01:16:54,009 --> 01:16:52,010
said right there oh well you don't know

2089
01:16:55,779 --> 01:16:54,019
yeah well we were just two guys having a

2090
01:16:57,790 --> 01:16:55,789
conversation I think you know when you

2091
01:17:00,100 --> 01:16:57,800
see him on the other shows he's an

2092
01:17:02,859 --> 01:17:00,110
entertainer and yeah that's kind of how

2093
01:17:05,620 --> 01:17:02,869
he makes a living is it's to a certain

2094
01:17:08,950 --> 01:17:05,630
degree exaggerating things like his

2095
01:17:11,979 --> 01:17:08,960
experience and his opinions with regards

2096
01:17:15,489 --> 01:17:11,989
to aliens cuz you know he's he does he

2097
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:15,499
does make a living doing it now so he in

2098
01:17:18,850 --> 01:17:17,690
some ways he's kind of forced to do it

2099
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:18,860
but when he when he was just like

2100
01:17:26,140 --> 01:17:21,530
chatting with somebody one on one I

2101
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:26,150
think perhaps yeah it yeah yeah also he

2102
01:17:30,669 --> 01:17:28,130
he's played up of course over maybe the

2103
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:30,679
TV producers play up his role as a who

2104
01:17:33,580 --> 01:17:32,239
worked for the defense industry or

2105
01:17:35,649 --> 01:17:33,590
defense department or whatever in

2106
01:17:38,379 --> 01:17:35,659
England you know that gives him cachet

2107
01:17:40,509 --> 01:17:38,389
like oh well he was on the inside he

2108
01:17:41,709 --> 01:17:40,519
knows what they were doing well he told

2109
01:17:42,790 --> 01:17:41,719
you that you know most of the stuff I

2110
01:17:46,689 --> 01:17:42,800
was doing had nothing to do with the

2111
01:17:48,969 --> 01:17:46,699
aliens and UFOs that's right

2112
01:17:51,279 --> 01:17:48,979
good when he says he here am the British

2113
01:17:52,810 --> 01:17:51,289
governments you go for her program even

2114
01:17:54,279 --> 01:17:52,820
though if it wasn't pretty much of a

2115
01:17:56,350 --> 01:17:54,289
program right

2116
01:17:57,969 --> 01:17:56,360
it's like Stan Friedman oh he's may be

2117
01:18:00,100 --> 01:17:57,979
may he rest in peace cuz I always like

2118
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:00,110
Stan but you know he always made a big

2119
01:18:04,180 --> 01:18:02,090
deal yeah nuclear physicists like

2120
01:18:06,459 --> 01:18:04,190
nuclear physicists so he must have some

2121
01:18:08,049 --> 01:18:06,469
inside knowledge about it's like UFO

2122
01:18:11,229 --> 01:18:08,059
people when they sight you know well he

2123
01:18:14,229 --> 01:18:11,239
was a general so what we found Sheriff

2124
01:18:15,910 --> 01:18:14,239
so what you know they have the same

2125
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:15,920
eyeballs and brains that we have there

2126
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:18,170
no no no no better at observing things

2127
01:18:21,489 --> 01:18:20,449
but but you know we want that kind of

2128
01:18:23,350 --> 01:18:21,499
art you well it's an argument from

2129
01:18:24,609 --> 01:18:23,360
Authority you know we want the people

2130
01:18:28,930 --> 01:18:24,619
making the claim to have some

2131
01:18:31,330 --> 01:18:28,940
credibility yeah so so what do we do

2132
01:18:33,729 --> 01:18:31,340
about all this how do we actually like

2133
01:18:35,949 --> 01:18:33,739
you know how do we fight the tide of

2134
01:18:37,839 --> 01:18:35,959
disinformation like you you you know

2135
01:18:39,729 --> 01:18:37,849
obviously like you your course is

2136
01:18:42,310 --> 01:18:39,739
grating like understanding it and

2137
01:18:43,689 --> 01:18:42,320
getting a lot of context to it but what

2138
01:18:47,580 --> 01:18:43,699
what do you think about the practical

2139
01:18:49,689 --> 01:18:47,590
steps that's we should be advocating for

2140
01:18:51,129 --> 01:18:49,699
well first of all I think the kinds of

2141
01:18:54,069 --> 01:18:51,139
things you and I are doing are important

2142
01:18:56,259 --> 01:18:54,079
that is nailing down the details and not

2143
01:18:58,149 --> 01:18:56,269
just us but you know Snopes for example

2144
01:19:01,169 --> 01:18:58,159
has been at him for a long time and and

2145
01:19:03,549 --> 01:19:01,179
now there are other groups like that

2146
01:19:04,419 --> 01:19:03,559
fact-checking political speeches so

2147
01:19:07,149 --> 01:19:04,429
PolitiFact

2148
01:19:09,129 --> 01:19:07,159
for example will fact-check Trump

2149
01:19:10,299 --> 01:19:09,139
speeches in real time then you can kind

2150
01:19:12,339 --> 01:19:10,309
of watch the speech and you can go

2151
01:19:14,140 --> 01:19:12,349
online and see they're checking or as he

2152
01:19:15,430 --> 01:19:14,150
is speaking you know and there and

2153
01:19:17,859 --> 01:19:15,440
there's a half a dozen of these

2154
01:19:19,060 --> 01:19:17,869
fact-checking sites that have come to

2155
01:19:23,199 --> 01:19:19,070
fruition in the last couple of years

2156
01:19:25,029 --> 01:19:23,209
that to me is an encouraging sign that

2157
01:19:27,219 --> 01:19:25,039
we're not living in a post truth world

2158
01:19:29,199 --> 01:19:27,229
the cover story of the current issue of

2159
01:19:31,390 --> 01:19:29,209
skeptic as deep thinker on it and he

2160
01:19:33,129 --> 01:19:31,400
wrote the cover story for us are we

2161
01:19:35,140 --> 01:19:33,139
living in a post truth world well he

2162
01:19:37,899 --> 01:19:35,150
just we titled it we're not living in a

2163
01:19:42,819 --> 01:19:37,909
post truth world and so his opening the

2164
01:19:47,589 --> 01:19:42,829
paragraph is is the statement we're

2165
01:19:49,899 --> 01:19:47,599
living in a post truth world true now

2166
01:19:51,189 --> 01:19:49,909
the moment you open your mouth you've

2167
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:51,199
lost the argument because you're making

2168
01:19:55,029 --> 01:19:53,449
an argument yes you're saying I think

2169
01:19:58,209 --> 01:19:55,039
there's evidence that we are living in a

2170
01:20:00,490 --> 01:19:58,219
post truth world weight evidence facts

2171
01:20:02,340 --> 01:20:00,500
you mean these things still matter

2172
01:20:05,170 --> 01:20:02,350
just like the anti free speech people

2173
01:20:07,030 --> 01:20:05,180
well but they open their mouth to make

2174
01:20:09,070 --> 01:20:07,040
an argument against free speech

2175
01:20:10,690 --> 01:20:09,080
they've lost because we're giving them

2176
01:20:14,290 --> 01:20:10,700
the platform to go ahead and make an

2177
01:20:16,090 --> 01:20:14,300
argument and voice their speech and you

2178
01:20:17,500 --> 01:20:16,100
know so I don't think we're living in a

2179
01:20:19,780 --> 01:20:17,510
post true I don't think conspiracy

2180
01:20:21,670 --> 01:20:19,790
theories have taken over I I think we

2181
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:21,680
can keep pushing as we always had that

2182
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:23,930
fact-checking matters evidence matters

2183
01:20:27,910 --> 01:20:27,170
values the Enlightenment values of

2184
01:20:31,540 --> 01:20:27,920
truth-telling

2185
01:20:32,470 --> 01:20:31,550
that matters we do want to know what

2186
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:32,480
actually happened

2187
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:34,850
I do think not just all these bottom-up

2188
01:20:38,620 --> 01:20:36,650
fact-checking type insights and

2189
01:20:41,710 --> 01:20:38,630
magazines like skeptic and books like

2190
01:20:43,540 --> 01:20:41,720
yours but but like the checks and

2191
01:20:45,370 --> 01:20:43,550
balances the stuff we've seen now during

2192
01:20:47,770 --> 01:20:45,380
the Trump administration you know the

2193
01:20:49,690 --> 01:20:47,780
end and that Trump haters you know they

2194
01:20:51,700 --> 01:20:49,700
keep portraying like this is the end of

2195
01:20:54,310 --> 01:20:51,710
the world actually he hasn't done all

2196
01:20:57,130 --> 01:20:54,320
that much because of all the pushback he

2197
01:20:59,830 --> 01:20:57,140
gets and all the legal pushback and and

2198
01:21:03,130 --> 01:20:59,840
the checks and balances are working

2199
01:21:05,860 --> 01:21:03,140
fairly well you know that whistleblower

2200
01:21:07,870 --> 01:21:05,870
protection it seems to be in place and

2201
01:21:09,550 --> 01:21:07,880
here Edward Snowden has one of the

2202
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:09,560
best-selling books in America this week

2203
01:21:13,450 --> 01:21:11,690
you know he's the whistle but now it

2204
01:21:14,950 --> 01:21:13,460
true he has to live in Russia in Moscow

2205
01:21:16,690 --> 01:21:14,960
I'm not sure that's such a great trade

2206
01:21:19,450 --> 01:21:16,700
off for him but you know maybe he'll be

2207
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:19,460
able to come back the whistle laws

2208
01:21:23,940 --> 01:21:21,410
protecting whistleblowers is I think

2209
01:21:28,330 --> 01:21:23,950
still pretty solid so I'm encouraged

2210
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:28,340
that you know we're standing the tide of

2211
01:21:32,830 --> 01:21:30,890
craziness yeah I never love the

2212
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:32,840
corporations are working on things as

2213
01:21:36,580 --> 01:21:34,970
well partly because they want to avoid

2214
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:36,590
regulation but probably because they

2215
01:21:40,440 --> 01:21:38,090
want to do good and they are fighting

2216
01:21:43,990 --> 01:21:40,450
against things like this information and

2217
01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:44,000
extremism yeah you saw that with

2218
01:21:47,230 --> 01:21:45,920
Facebook I mean Zuckerberg and so you

2219
01:21:48,730 --> 01:21:47,240
know they're running scared they don't

2220
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:48,740
want to be great they don't want to be

2221
01:21:51,730 --> 01:21:49,970
regulated they don't want to be broken

2222
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:51,740
up and elizabeth warren wants to break

2223
01:21:56,590 --> 01:21:54,650
up the huge corporations Facebook Google

2224
01:21:59,410 --> 01:21:56,600
Twitter and so on I don't think that's

2225
01:22:01,780 --> 01:21:59,420
necessary I think you know just leaning

2226
01:22:05,550 --> 01:22:01,790
on them socially it you know has a

2227
01:22:08,260 --> 01:22:05,560
pretty big effect and you know so that

2228
01:22:11,100 --> 01:22:08,270
that that's working I think fairly well

2229
01:22:13,939 --> 01:22:11,110
yeah you you are a member of the

2230
01:22:17,100 --> 01:22:13,949
intellectual dark web

2231
01:22:20,490 --> 01:22:17,110
such as it is yeah and I mean I guess

2232
01:22:22,859 --> 01:22:20,500
the the themes of us are kind of talking

2233
01:22:28,169 --> 01:22:22,869
about things that are not acceptable to

2234
01:22:29,910 --> 01:22:28,179
talk about you know things that's and I

2235
01:22:31,260 --> 01:22:29,920
say various issues like gender and

2236
01:22:35,339 --> 01:22:31,270
language and things like that an

2237
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:35,349
immigration yet and whatnot do you think

2238
01:22:39,629 --> 01:22:37,210
near the the the themes of the

2239
01:22:40,979 --> 01:22:39,639
intellectual dark web in pushing back

2240
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:40,989
against not being able to talk about

2241
01:22:47,689 --> 01:22:44,170
things irrelevant to like conspiracy

2242
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:47,699
theorists do we need more discussion

2243
01:22:54,500 --> 01:22:50,770
totally I mean that you know the shining

2244
01:22:57,149 --> 01:22:54,510
the light in the dark spots is gonna

2245
01:22:59,339 --> 01:22:57,159
attenuate fear and anxiety people

2246
01:23:02,430 --> 01:22:59,349
naturally have about those dark places

2247
01:23:04,649 --> 01:23:02,440
that we know sometimes are real there

2248
01:23:06,810 --> 01:23:04,659
for open conversation and dialogue is

2249
01:23:08,810 --> 01:23:06,820
the only hope we have to solving these

2250
01:23:12,470 --> 01:23:08,820
problems if you're worried about

2251
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:12,480
discrimination against LGBTQ for example

2252
01:23:17,010 --> 01:23:14,530
the best thing we could do is have

2253
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:17,020
conversations about well how many people

2254
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:19,210
are gay how many people are really trans

2255
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,489
what does it mean to be trans I had on

2256
01:23:24,839 --> 01:23:22,960
my podcast yesterday Douglas Murray has

2257
01:23:26,700 --> 01:23:24,849
this book the madness of crowds out in

2258
01:23:28,620 --> 01:23:26,710
which he's pushing back against that and

2259
01:23:30,300 --> 01:23:28,630
you know he's got a pretty big audience

2260
01:23:32,250 --> 01:23:30,310
and a receptive audience to this like

2261
01:23:33,959 --> 01:23:32,260
yeah yeah well why are we talking about

2262
01:23:35,609 --> 01:23:33,969
trans how many people are we talking

2263
01:23:37,950 --> 01:23:35,619
about then the answer is we have no idea

2264
01:23:41,069 --> 01:23:37,960
there's almost no research on any of

2265
01:23:42,569 --> 01:23:41,079
this so you know Sean's research people

2266
01:23:45,569 --> 01:23:42,579
just go to these kind of natural

2267
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,579
prejudices prejudice places no let's

2268
01:23:50,069 --> 01:23:47,679
let's have an open conversation about

2269
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:50,079
every single thing that's of interest to

2270
01:23:54,390 --> 01:23:51,520
people now you don't have to talk about

2271
01:23:57,089 --> 01:23:54,400
everything the point I made when I was

2272
01:23:59,189 --> 01:23:57,099
in graduate school I could see that the

2273
01:24:01,740 --> 01:23:59,199
race and IQ issue I was in cycling

2274
01:24:04,709 --> 01:24:01,750
psychology this was already a pretty

2275
01:24:06,030 --> 01:24:04,719
sensitive subject in the 70s and I

2276
01:24:09,030 --> 01:24:06,040
thought you know what I'm just not gonna

2277
01:24:11,129 --> 01:24:09,040
do that I can see why African Americans

2278
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:11,139
would not be to have hip up this

2279
01:24:14,790 --> 01:24:12,610
research and I'm not sure why I'd want

2280
01:24:17,129 --> 01:24:14,800
to know if there really are differences

2281
01:24:19,109 --> 01:24:17,139
in IQ between blacks and whites and if I

2282
01:24:21,419 --> 01:24:19,119
did know that what I would do with that

2283
01:24:23,430 --> 01:24:21,429
I'm totally supportive that people don't

2284
01:24:25,350 --> 01:24:23,440
want to research that and you know talk

2285
01:24:27,089 --> 01:24:25,360
about it we should talk about it

2286
01:24:29,339 --> 01:24:27,099
but we don't have to do everything that

2287
01:24:30,810 --> 01:24:29,349
right so there's there's censoring

2288
01:24:32,580 --> 01:24:30,820
things which we don't want to do but you

2289
01:24:35,009 --> 01:24:32,590
don't have to fund research I don't have

2290
01:24:37,139 --> 01:24:35,019
to you know you know encourage people to

2291
01:24:38,549 --> 01:24:37,149
do that yeah and there's some things

2292
01:24:40,529 --> 01:24:38,559
that just attach you that even if

2293
01:24:42,719 --> 01:24:40,539
there's something to be gained from

2294
01:24:47,250 --> 01:24:42,729
researching it it might be offset by the

2295
01:24:49,020 --> 01:24:47,260
negative social consequences of focusing

2296
01:24:52,679 --> 01:24:49,030
right and I think that some of the some

2297
01:24:54,179 --> 01:24:52,689
individuals as well it's you can protest

2298
01:24:56,909 --> 01:24:54,189
that you should be able to talk about

2299
01:24:59,429 --> 01:24:56,919
things but realistically it's gonna have

2300
01:25:00,949 --> 01:24:59,439
an effect if you want to research things

2301
01:25:05,459 --> 01:25:00,959
like eugenics or something like that

2302
01:25:06,600 --> 01:25:05,469
right yeah you know the the whole the

2303
01:25:08,580 --> 01:25:06,610
thing about the intellectual darkwave

2304
01:25:10,909 --> 01:25:08,590
our you know our focus on free speech

2305
01:25:13,949 --> 01:25:10,919
and it's kind of a fundamental principle

2306
01:25:15,569 --> 01:25:13,959
and you know we've highlighted a lot you

2307
01:25:17,100 --> 01:25:15,579
know the deep platforming of speakers on

2308
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:17,110
college campuses we don't want that kind

2309
01:25:20,489 --> 01:25:18,610
of censorship okay first of all it's not

2310
01:25:22,709 --> 01:25:20,499
a First Amendment issue government is

2311
01:25:24,989 --> 01:25:22,719
not coming in to tell Miley innopolis he

2312
01:25:27,089 --> 01:25:24,999
can't speak at UC Berkeley no it's more

2313
01:25:29,489 --> 01:25:27,099
you know bottom-up students protesting

2314
01:25:31,500 --> 01:25:29,499
shouldn't students have the opportunity

2315
01:25:34,649 --> 01:25:31,510
to hear my LOI innopolis or ben shapiro

2316
01:25:37,049 --> 01:25:34,659
yeah sure but the universities don't

2317
01:25:39,209 --> 01:25:37,059
have to invite them you know they're not

2318
01:25:42,389 --> 01:25:39,219
required to invite every single person

2319
01:25:46,049 --> 01:25:42,399
who has some weird belief I I would

2320
01:25:49,889 --> 01:25:46,059
invite say a George Will or some kind of

2321
01:25:52,259 --> 01:25:49,899
centrist conservative to talk about the

2322
01:25:54,060 --> 01:25:52,269
conservative position so that liberal

2323
01:25:57,119 --> 01:25:54,070
students have some idea why half of

2324
01:26:00,810 --> 01:25:57,129
America votes Republican yeah but I

2325
01:26:03,270 --> 01:26:00,820
wouldn't invite Richard Spencer or Jared

2326
01:26:04,549 --> 01:26:03,280
Taylor you know they're conservative but

2327
01:26:08,609 --> 01:26:04,559
they're really kind of right-wing

2328
01:26:10,669 --> 01:26:08,619
neo-nazi type yeah and no I would not

2329
01:26:12,629 --> 01:26:10,679
represent not invite them to represent

2330
01:26:14,969 --> 01:26:12,639
conservativism you don't have to invite

2331
01:26:17,250 --> 01:26:14,979
everybody like a Ben Shapiro you know

2332
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:17,260
there's the IDW isn't made much about

2333
01:26:23,969 --> 01:26:20,050
the grief Ben Shapiro has gotten at some

2334
01:26:26,969 --> 01:26:23,979
of his campus appearances and that's

2335
01:26:28,739 --> 01:26:26,979
true but you know he's given hundreds of

2336
01:26:31,259 --> 01:26:28,749
these talks and most of them I've

2337
01:26:33,659 --> 01:26:31,269
watched quite a few online he's received

2338
01:26:35,250 --> 01:26:33,669
very well standing ovations there's a

2339
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:35,260
huge conservative movement on campus

2340
01:26:39,870 --> 01:26:38,650
they love him and he invites people

2341
01:26:42,780 --> 01:26:39,880
that disagree with them to come to the

2342
01:26:45,810 --> 01:26:42,790
front of the line and he only a couple

2343
01:26:48,330 --> 01:26:45,820
do mostly he's not D platformed the

2344
01:26:50,669 --> 01:26:48,340
hecklers veto does not shut him down so

2345
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:50,679
while all the incidences that have

2346
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:52,210
happened that you know we're concerned

2347
01:26:58,110 --> 01:26:55,810
about campus craziness they're still

2348
01:27:00,120 --> 01:26:58,120
kind of in the minority most of the time

2349
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:00,130
on college campuses things are just

2350
01:27:04,620 --> 01:27:02,050
going along like they usually do most

2351
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:04,630
speakers are not D platformed most of

2352
01:27:08,100 --> 01:27:06,250
the time students are not burning down

2353
01:27:10,500 --> 01:27:08,110
the local Starbucks or whatever in

2354
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:10,510
protest to the speaker that's still

2355
01:27:14,790 --> 01:27:12,850
fairly rare so I'm not I'm not in an

2356
01:27:17,610 --> 01:27:14,800
existential mode of you know we're

2357
01:27:23,070 --> 01:27:17,620
facing a crisis in Western civilization

2358
01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:23,080
now yeah just a last topic what do you

2359
01:27:27,780 --> 01:27:25,600
think of the skeptical community

2360
01:27:29,820 --> 01:27:27,790
do you think there's a viable skeptical

2361
01:27:33,330 --> 01:27:29,830
community and you know should there be a

2362
01:27:34,590 --> 01:27:33,340
different skeptical community well

2363
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:34,600
obviously I published a magazine called

2364
01:27:38,850 --> 01:27:36,880
skeptics oh yeah I think we had we have

2365
01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:38,860
a viable movement just by some

2366
01:27:43,530 --> 01:27:41,110
background the modern skeptical movement

2367
01:27:45,570 --> 01:27:43,540
really began in the 70s when early

2368
01:27:48,300 --> 01:27:45,580
Geller and some of the other New Agers

2369
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:48,310
kind of got popular and famous and a

2370
01:27:54,419 --> 01:27:49,810
handful of people like the amazing Randi

2371
01:27:59,250 --> 01:27:54,429
ray hyman Paul Kurtz marchello true Zia

2372
01:28:00,680 --> 01:27:59,260
sociologist and a few others Martin

2373
01:28:02,430 --> 01:28:00,690
Gardner mm-hmm

2374
01:28:03,899 --> 01:28:02,440
said you know we need to push back

2375
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:03,909
against these people I mean I mean early

2376
01:28:07,020 --> 01:28:05,650
Geller this Israeli spoon bender he's

2377
01:28:09,570 --> 01:28:07,030
like on the cover of Time magazine it's

2378
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:09,580
like what he's on these top major talk

2379
01:28:14,250 --> 01:28:12,730
shows it's like okay this like who do

2380
01:28:16,410 --> 01:28:14,260
you choose to take on to be scale well

2381
01:28:17,850 --> 01:28:16,420
if they're big and people really want to

2382
01:28:20,100 --> 01:28:17,860
know and millions of people are watching

2383
01:28:22,649 --> 01:28:20,110
we you know we should say something and

2384
01:28:24,870 --> 01:28:22,659
that that's what launched the Center for

2385
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:24,880
inquiry as it's now called and skeptical

2386
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:26,290
inquirer and then we launched skeptic

2387
01:28:30,090 --> 01:28:28,449
magazine in the 90s but there are dozens

2388
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:30,100
of magazines around the world

2389
01:28:34,860 --> 01:28:32,170
and hundreds of local small skeptic

2390
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:34,870
groups and millions of people that you

2391
01:28:37,620 --> 01:28:36,250
know I don't know if they'd call

2392
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:37,630
themselves skeptics but they you know

2393
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:39,850
they embrace that kind of skeptical

2394
01:28:45,630 --> 01:28:43,090
perspective and and what we do is it's

2395
01:28:47,790 --> 01:28:45,640
kind of specialized knowledge like what

2396
01:28:50,070 --> 01:28:47,800
you do you know the average person is

2397
01:28:52,049 --> 01:28:50,080
not going to know how fast a building

2398
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:52,059
falls when it's you know collapsing

2399
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:53,770
why would you know that most people

2400
01:28:58,109 --> 01:28:56,320
don't know that and you know or the door

2401
01:28:59,310 --> 01:28:58,119
doesn't lock on the gas chamber at my

2402
01:29:01,649 --> 01:28:59,320
dock you know who would know these

2403
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:01,659
things right but skeptics know that you

2404
01:29:06,029 --> 01:29:03,610
know like how do people walk across hot

2405
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:06,039
coals in bare feet without getting

2406
01:29:09,330 --> 01:29:07,840
burned well here's the physics of it now

2407
01:29:09,950 --> 01:29:09,340
most physicists don't know that why

2408
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:09,960
would they know that

2409
01:29:14,609 --> 01:29:12,489
skeptics know that so it's kind of a

2410
01:29:16,140 --> 01:29:14,619
specialized thing that's what we do and

2411
01:29:18,930 --> 01:29:16,150
skeptics do I think it's it's pretty

2412
01:29:20,430 --> 01:29:18,940
solid my one concern about it is this is

2413
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:20,440
more really the Atheist movement in this

2414
01:29:25,620 --> 01:29:22,800
chemical movement is being too political

2415
01:29:27,770 --> 01:29:25,630
that is the after the atheist movement

2416
01:29:29,819 --> 01:29:27,780
started to get really big after Dawkins

2417
01:29:31,740 --> 01:29:29,829
2006 book The God Delusion

2418
01:29:34,049 --> 01:29:31,750
but then it splintered first it

2419
01:29:35,970 --> 01:29:34,059
splintered about who is militant atheist

2420
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:35,980
versus more moderate atheist you know

2421
01:29:42,930 --> 01:29:39,130
you know and because Richard and Sam

2422
01:29:44,790 --> 01:29:42,940
Harris and and Hitchens not so much

2423
01:29:46,589 --> 01:29:44,800
Dawkins but you know they're really go

2424
01:29:48,899 --> 01:29:46,599
for the jugular I mean we're gonna just

2425
01:29:51,299 --> 01:29:48,909
drive right in there and debunk these

2426
01:29:55,169 --> 01:29:51,309
crazy claims and anybody that believes

2427
01:29:57,870 --> 01:29:55,179
this god stuff is deluded Wow okay well

2428
01:29:59,819 --> 01:29:57,880
sometimes that works but other times

2429
01:30:01,589 --> 01:29:59,829
that doesn't work and more moderate

2430
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:01,599
approaches that other people take work

2431
01:30:05,220 --> 01:30:03,010
better you know there isn't so there's

2432
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:05,230
no single answers the first division was

2433
01:30:08,879 --> 01:30:07,090
between militant atheists and more

2434
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:08,889
moderate atheists and the next split was

2435
01:30:14,490 --> 01:30:11,920
social justice atheism so atheist plus

2436
01:30:16,620 --> 01:30:14,500
the plus is social justice well that's

2437
01:30:18,750 --> 01:30:16,630
kind of a dog whistle label that means

2438
01:30:22,830 --> 01:30:18,760
something very specific politically

2439
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:22,840
far-left progressive liberalism and this

2440
01:30:29,669 --> 01:30:25,090
is very different from kind of more

2441
01:30:31,950 --> 01:30:29,679
centrist liberal liberalism and so a lot

2442
01:30:34,529 --> 01:30:31,960
of atheists were very alienated by that

2443
01:30:36,359 --> 01:30:34,539
including me like well but wait we all

2444
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:36,369
embrace and endorse science and critical

2445
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:38,050
thinking and reason and enlightenment

2446
01:30:42,330 --> 01:30:39,730
values right that's kind of a big tent

2447
01:30:44,819 --> 01:30:42,340
right down the middle and we all agree

2448
01:30:46,799 --> 01:30:44,829
on that but the Atheist plus are way off

2449
01:30:48,810 --> 01:30:46,809
to the left going no no no

2450
01:30:51,479 --> 01:30:48,820
if you can't tick the box for all 12 of

2451
01:30:52,620 --> 01:30:51,489
these things you're out and the same

2452
01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:52,630
thing happened with the humanist

2453
01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:54,880
movement and feminist movement and

2454
01:30:59,760 --> 01:30:56,770
Marxist movement and the iron rant

2455
01:31:02,759 --> 01:30:59,770
Objectivist movement I think there's a

2456
01:31:04,890 --> 01:31:02,769
psychology here a sociology of social

2457
01:31:05,729 --> 01:31:04,900
groups social movements they splinter

2458
01:31:07,379 --> 01:31:05,739
apart

2459
01:31:10,529 --> 01:31:07,389
when they fight over little tiny

2460
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:10,539
doctrinaire portions of their whole

2461
01:31:14,970 --> 01:31:12,489
platform and if you can't tick the box

2462
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:14,980
for all 12 or whatever then you're out

2463
01:31:18,779 --> 01:31:17,409
and the moment you start kicking people

2464
01:31:21,259 --> 01:31:18,789
out of your group your group's gonna get

2465
01:31:23,399 --> 01:31:21,269
smaller so I do worry about that yeah

2466
01:31:25,109 --> 01:31:23,409
yeah actually the last question I had

2467
01:31:30,870 --> 01:31:25,119
written down was is the skeptical tent

2468
01:31:32,819 --> 01:31:30,880
too big and I think well I to me I think

2469
01:31:34,319 --> 01:31:32,829
everybody should be skeptical I mean

2470
01:31:35,879 --> 01:31:34,329
people are just they're not thinking

2471
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:35,889
themselves as skeptical but if you're

2472
01:31:42,330 --> 01:31:38,050
skeptical of what Trump is doing with

2473
01:31:44,700 --> 01:31:42,340
Ukraine this week you're a skeptic and

2474
01:31:45,390 --> 01:31:44,710
even if you're a 9/11 truther they're

2475
01:31:47,790 --> 01:31:45,400
skeptics

2476
01:31:50,970 --> 01:31:47,800
okay so the skepticism thing is good

2477
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:50,980
fine suspicious of the government the

2478
01:31:54,660 --> 01:31:52,719
government does do suspicious things

2479
01:31:56,609 --> 01:31:54,670
that's absolutely yeah we should all be

2480
01:31:59,910 --> 01:31:56,619
skeptical then it comes down to well how

2481
01:32:03,209 --> 01:31:59,920
do we know what's true that's really

2482
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:03,219
science is our best tool yeah I know

2483
01:32:06,989 --> 01:32:04,510
this has been a fascinating conversation

2484
01:32:10,049 --> 01:32:06,999
I wanna thank you very much is there any

2485
01:32:11,729 --> 01:32:10,059
lust would you want to say I'll touch

2486
01:32:14,279 --> 01:32:11,739
upon oh well just thanks for having me

2487
01:32:15,660 --> 01:32:14,289
on thanks for your important work the

2488
01:32:17,549 --> 01:32:15,670
course itself you can just go to

2489
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:17,559
audible.com and get it there I don't

2490
01:32:20,459 --> 01:32:18,610
think it's on the teaching company

2491
01:32:23,489 --> 01:32:20,469
website yeah but audible.com or Amazon

2492
01:32:26,430 --> 01:32:23,499
has the course and yeah so keep up the

2493
01:32:27,839 --> 01:32:26,440
good work you know thank you yeah and

2494
01:32:29,220 --> 01:32:27,849
you too and yeah I really enjoyed the

2495
01:32:32,430 --> 01:32:29,230
book and I can recommend it to anybody

2496
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:32,440
who wants to get a good perspective on

2497
01:32:36,839 --> 01:32:35,170
conspiracy theories it's a very

2498
01:32:39,209 --> 01:32:36,849
interested some new things which is

2499
01:32:43,770 --> 01:32:39,219
saying something as I'm a long term

2500
01:32:44,070 --> 01:32:43,780
conspiracy guy all right well thanks